Ground Up 22: Five Decades of Climbing with Coach Eric Hörst

1
00:00:00,130 --> 00:00:00,780
Robert
out so i to reboot everything but either one i'm pretty flexible so whatever's easiest

2
00:00:00,780 --> 00:00:03,250
Eric
Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Nice to meet you. Do you go Rob or Robert?

3
00:00:03,250 --> 00:00:05,900
Ari Grode
in

4
00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:09,680
Eric
Okay.

5
00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:15,620
Ari Grode
Yeah, we were just we were just chatting. Eric's got a hard stop at ah at the half an hour at the latest. So just keep that in mind ah for the interview.

6
00:00:15,620 --> 00:00:20,480
Robert
okay sounds good

7
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:30,770
Ari Grode
um Yeah, we were just chatting. We were chatting about ah Staunton State Park. Yeah, that that dungeon area, is ah that's fantastic. i mean, some of those routes are a little out of my pay grade, but there's at least some stuff to get on.

8
00:00:30,770 --> 00:00:33,540
Eric
Yeah.

9
00:00:33,540 --> 00:00:45,640
Eric
Yeah. I've climbed everything there up to like 13 a there's like two is like a 13 C and a 13 D that are above my pay grade. Uh, but it's a, it's actually pretty good summer wall cause it gets shade all morning.

10
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:46,040
Eric
And, uh, so we're out there in the summer.

11
00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,890
Ari Grode
Yeah.

12
00:00:47,890 --> 00:00:57,200
Eric
We'll often swing by there. ah I prefer it to clear Creek. I mean, clear Creek's got some good sectors for sure, but, uh,

13
00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:08,140
Ari Grode
Yeah. click You know, Clear Creek seems to be a little hit or miss like the armory. We were just there the other day and there's a, you know, there's a route called Kentank that has like some of the best rock I've seen in the, in the Canyon, which, you know, that would stand up at like to anything at the new river gorge, but then other places, you know, or,

14
00:01:08,140 --> 00:01:12,980
Eric
Yeah. Yeah.

15
00:01:12,980 --> 00:01:14,300
Eric
Right.

16
00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:16,180
Ari Grode
or it's hit or miss. So yeah, I agree.

17
00:01:16,180 --> 00:01:16,280
Eric
It's hit or miss.

18
00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:16,740
Ari Grode
I really liked.

19
00:01:16,740 --> 00:01:17,550
Eric
Yeah. Yeah.

20
00:01:17,550 --> 00:01:18,510
Ari Grode
Yeah.

21
00:01:18,510 --> 00:01:21,020
Eric
Yeah. For sure. so

22
00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:36,640
Ari Grode
um Well, look, we we appreciate you you taking some time to join us on this. I mean, you're, you're certainly somebody who's, you know, been around the climbing scene for a long time. And I think you're probably our most well-known guests that we've had on the podcast so far.

23
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:47,580
Ari Grode
ah You know, you've, you've, had a lifetime full of climbing and, you know, people might know you for, ah training for climbing or fizzy vantage, or you've, you've got your own podcast and you've been on a lot of other episodes, but you know, I think what we,

24
00:01:47,580 --> 00:01:56,480
Eric
Yeah. I'm an old guy. I've been, I've been doing this for almost 50 years, you know, so, uh, um, but yeah, I'm blessed to, to still be climbing at a, you know, pretty good level and my body's holding up, uh, you know, I'm 61.

25
00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,910
Robert
Thank you.

26
00:02:01,910 --> 00:02:15,660
Eric
So I've been around a long time and, uh, but you know, with, uh, smart training, good nutrition, you know, there's a lot that people can act on if they, uh, you know, want to stay fit, uh, and,

27
00:02:15,660 --> 00:02:43,950
Eric
you know Climbing is one of those sports you can have such a long arc to your career. you know Mine began at age 13 in the 70s at the Schwangunks and here in Pennsylvania and then the New River Gorge. And then you know I traveled around the country and around the world through my you know most of my adult life. And here at 61, I'm still bolting routes at the Red River Gorge and you know projecting 513 miles.

28
00:02:43,950 --> 00:02:56,440
Eric
you know B, C, D and you know, those hard sends are few and far between, but you know, it's like that for people half my age. So I feel like I'm doing okay.

29
00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:56,580
Ari Grode
Yeah.

30
00:02:56,580 --> 00:02:56,600
Robert
Yeah.

31
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:57,430
Ari Grode
Nope. no

32
00:02:57,430 --> 00:03:06,410
Robert
Yeah. I think, I think there's still plenty of people that will take the ah few and far between sends that you're putting down compared to the ones they're putting down. So certainly, certainly worth acknowledging to say the least.

33
00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:32,100
Eric
Yeah. But you know, I, it's, it's, we talk about grades cause it is a benchmark, but I'm just happy to be climbing. And you know, I, have always kind of, at least in my adult life, had this perspective of, you know, a climber for life. A lot of sports you age out of, you know, all the sports you play in high school and into maybe, you know, college, ah you kind of age out of them, you know, playing football, let's say, or soccer or, you know, sports.

34
00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:46,340
Eric
you know, hockey, ah but then there's these sports that you can do for life, you know, climbing, I guess golf would be one, ah you know, I guess these days pickleball is something that's people of, uh, of my age have gotten into though. I haven't ever tried it.

35
00:03:46,340 --> 00:04:01,050
Eric
I'm, I'm happy just to focus on climbing, but, uh, you know, hopefully if I can you know keep it together, i like to think I can be climbing, you know, into my eighties. So, and you know, maybe it's only five, eight, who knows, but, uh,

36
00:04:01,050 --> 00:04:20,640
Eric
it would be yeah I kind of, in my mind, have this ah goal in recent years to see how ah long I can continue to climb 513. It's a grade that i did for the first time in nineteen eighty seven ah and um I've climbed 513 ever since then.

37
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,110
Eric
So I'm coming up on two more years, you know, 40 years of climbing the 513 grade.

38
00:04:23,110 --> 00:04:25,560
Ari Grode
40 years.

39
00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:25,600
Robert
wow

40
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,590
Ari Grode
Yeah.

41
00:04:27,590 --> 00:04:41,040
Eric
And so it's like, man, it could I stretched that. I was talking to Alex Magos last fall when we were together and, you know, he's like, what are you what are you striving to do? And I'm like, well, you know, I'd love to climb a 514. That may or may not ever happen.

42
00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:56,420
Eric
It's got to be the right route and I got to have the temperament to work on it a long time. But I'd also like to try to climb 513 I'm you know, 75 or something like that, which oh is kind of a side challenge for me. So.

43
00:04:56,420 --> 00:04:56,540
Ari Grode
Yeah, yeah.

44
00:04:56,540 --> 00:04:56,980
Robert
Yeah, that's incredible.

45
00:04:56,980 --> 00:04:58,330
Ari Grode
that's a

46
00:04:58,330 --> 00:04:58,950
Robert
i mean, I played soccer in college, so I can certainly relate to the idea of like, yeah, there's certain sports that you sort of phase out of, at least on like a peak performance level.

47
00:04:58,950 --> 00:05:06,810
Ari Grode
but

48
00:05:06,810 --> 00:05:19,840
Robert
And I think one of the really attractive things about climbing as a sport, at least to me, is the idea that, yeah, you can progress. and get better as you get older. And obviously there's certain limits on that and and different aspects and nuances to that.

49
00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:20,160
Eric
yeah

50
00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:27,370
Robert
But the fact that you can still progress and sort of hit a peak format, a later in life stage is pretty incredible. Or you can, like your climbing can shift, right?

51
00:05:27,370 --> 00:05:28,230
Eric
for

52
00:05:28,230 --> 00:05:31,170
Robert
And you can perform in different ways, which is pretty unique.

53
00:05:31,170 --> 00:05:34,670
Eric
You can like, you know, heading into your fifties or sixties or seventies don't recommend pushing yourself on hard boulders because boulders just become, you know, bouldering can be injurious for young people.

54
00:05:34,670 --> 00:05:38,920
Ari Grode
Thank

55
00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,320
Robert
Yeah. Yeah.

56
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:57,920
Eric
And so as you get older and your body is a little less resilient and a little more run down, ah you know, so going out and trying to do double digit boulders is, you know, kind of playing with fire.

57
00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:58,590
Eric
But route climbing, especially, you know, sport climbing that is more endurance or mastery oriented, as an older climber, your physical constraints are are less a factor and

58
00:05:58,590 --> 00:06:10,610
Robert
yeah

59
00:06:10,610 --> 00:06:36,230
Eric
when they are a factor, it's more about endurance, which is something we can maintain into our older years. Whereas that raw strength and power, you know that's the stuff of the young man. And you know being 50 or 60 or 70 and trying to do powerful campus type moves, ah not saying it can't be done, but it's risky. And so I'm ah very choosy when I risk subjecting myself to that type of movement.

60
00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:47,830
Eric
But, you know, climbing, i'm I'm fond of pointing out there's like three major facets to it. There's physical, but there's also mental and technical. And so the mental and technical facets, we can continue to refine and improve.

61
00:06:47,830 --> 00:06:50,860
Robert
Thank you.

62
00:06:50,860 --> 00:07:17,890
Eric
ah you know decade after decade, I'm still you know fine tuning in those areas. The physical side of things, obviously, you get you know age becomes a factor and I'm not quite as powerful as I was 20 years ago, but I'm almost as strong and i actually have more endurance now than I had 20 years ago. So there are ways in ah climbing to still perform at a high level.

63
00:07:17,890 --> 00:07:20,590
Eric
maybe in a little different ways than you did as a younger climber.

64
00:07:20,590 --> 00:07:21,280
Robert
Thank

65
00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:45,740
Eric
But I think that should be motivating. you know a lot of I hear from a lot of people who discover a climbing in their 30s or 40s now. they They walk into a climbing gym and try it for the first time at age 35, 40, 45, and I tell them, oh man, you know you know you should be psyched because you have a sport you can do for the next 20 or 30 years and steadily improve at.

66
00:07:45,740 --> 00:07:54,560
Eric
And you know generally, you know my wife's a a golf pro and you know when someone tries to learn golf at age 35 or 40, it's ugly because your body just doesn't want to do that.

67
00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:56,660
Ari Grode
You

68
00:07:56,660 --> 00:08:10,330
Eric
And to groove this you know nuanced golf swing is the type of thing you want to do when you're a kid and your brain is more plastic and ah able to learn, you know, the the nuance of a golf swing.

69
00:08:10,330 --> 00:08:24,630
Eric
But climbing something you can learn at any age, I believe, and to come to climb at a pretty high level. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a message I'm happy to spread on podcasts like yours is that ah no matter what age you discover climbing, there's a lot there, especially if you're willing to take it outside of the gym and, ah you know, travel some, ah you know, you guys climbed on the East coast.

70
00:08:24,630 --> 00:08:37,170
Robert
Thank

71
00:08:37,170 --> 00:08:55,700
Eric
Now you're climbing farther West. And, you know, that's one of the beautiful things is being able to visit all these great climbing areas or, you you know, travel the world if you want to, ah to enjoy different types of climbing. So yeah, that's, you know, kind of unique to our sport.

72
00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:56,250
Robert
Yeah, it's pretty special.

73
00:08:56,250 --> 00:08:56,500
Ari Grode
Yeah.

74
00:08:56,500 --> 00:09:07,020
Robert
Like I, uh, like I I'm flying out to my Oracle tomorrow and it's like, that's like on top of, it's like nice to be able to have a a sport and a discipline that when you are traveling, like let's say it's to my Oracle or wherever, like you can add a couple of days on to a trip already, or you can make a trip out of it and, and climb a little bit, but go ahead.

75
00:09:07,020 --> 00:09:15,720
Eric
Yeah.

76
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:16,150
Robert
Are.

77
00:09:16,150 --> 00:09:17,640
Eric
You bet.

78
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:28,290
Ari Grode
Yeah. A hundred percent agree, Rob. Uh, but yeah, i wanted to maybe you know, kick it back a little bit, you know, you talk about, climbing five 14 for almost 40 years and you got into the sport at the age of, or five 13, I'm sorry, five 13 for almost 40 years.

79
00:09:28,290 --> 00:09:28,910
Eric
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

80
00:09:28,910 --> 00:09:30,640
Robert
third reading thirteen

81
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,740
Eric
yeah yeah

82
00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:41,720
Ari Grode
Uh, but you got into the sport at the age of 13. I mean, let's let's, can we dive into that a little bit? I mean, what did, always love hearing like what the sport was like or what the, ah what climbing was like back in the day.

83
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,620
Eric
yeah

84
00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:48,890
Ari Grode
And, you know, you said, you mentioned you, you climbed at the Shawana going, cause you said you're, you're from Pennsylvania, right?

85
00:09:48,890 --> 00:09:57,130
Eric
Correct, yeah, yeah, I'm still in Pennsylvania. And so i there are some small backwater crags here that are good beginner to and intermediate crags.

86
00:09:57,130 --> 00:10:00,960
Ari Grode
Mm-hmm.

87
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:17,520
Eric
There's no high-end world-class climbing in Pennsylvania. That's what we traveled to the New River Gorge and the Red River Gorge or back in the day, the Schwangang's for. And so, yeah, in 1977, it was a different sport. You know, there were no indoor climbing gyms, there were no hang boards.

88
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:49,320
Eric
There were no cams yet, just ah old passive hardware and ah You know, so that's the world that I was, you know, learning to climb in my first five years or so. i was learning to trad climb at places like Seneca Rocks and the Schwangunks. And, you know, you're always kind of on the verge of risking your neck, you know, climbing at any trad area, El Dorado Canyon. You know, you're going to get on some classic routes that have some sparse gear.

89
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:50,910
Eric
They're not sport routes. And, you know, you so that's kind of yeah climbing was a very, you know,

90
00:10:50,910 --> 00:10:57,050
Ari Grode
Yeah.

91
00:10:57,050 --> 00:11:01,510
Eric
Niche sport is back in the 70s populated eccentrics and physicists ah here, certainly on the East Coast or in the Northeast.

92
00:11:01,510 --> 00:11:08,500
Ari Grode
what What did the

93
00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:20,340
Eric
There were the climbing clubs like at Princeton and Harvard and ah you know the Ivy League schools that had climbing or outing clubs that would venture into the Appalachians and do skiing and climbing.

94
00:11:20,340 --> 00:11:41,100
Eric
And in the winter, mount Washington, um you know ice climbing and in the Northeast. and ah You know, again, no climbing gyms and really no kid climbers. The only reason I got into it at age 13 was my older brother, who was, you know, 20 at the time, ah learned it in college at Penn State.

95
00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:52,190
Eric
ah And it just so happened, coincidentally, in the county that I grew up in, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, there were ah there was another young climber.

96
00:11:52,190 --> 00:11:54,600
Eric
named Tuher who was about my age and had an older brother who taught him to climb.

97
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,590
Ari Grode
Oh, yeah. OK.

98
00:11:57,590 --> 00:12:10,640
Eric
and And then another youngster named Jeff Batzer. and so It was quite unusual that in our town, there were these three teenage climbers that would be out with the adult climbers.

99
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:25,380
Eric
It's not like today where there's kid climbers everywhere. There was none back then. um In Colorado, there was Christian Griffith, who was a protege of Pat Ament, and you Christian's my age as well. So probably in the United States, there was...

100
00:12:25,380 --> 00:12:39,270
Eric
probably 10 kid climbers. It just so happened that three of them were in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And so I had ah some high school climbing buddies to really take things off with. I wasn't relying on my older brother.

101
00:12:39,270 --> 00:13:04,440
Eric
And then, you know, you get a driver's license when you turn 16 and that opens up doing some traveling. I did my first trip to El Dorado Canyon in 1981 and, you know, blew my mind because I hadn't climbed anything that tall or intimidating, but yet I was out there, you know, in 1981, you know, jumping on the classics, you know, in Aldo at the time and, you know, club country club crack and Boulder Canyon and, you know, um climbing five 11 tried back in 81 was, you know, not a trivial thing.

102
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:18,130
Ari Grode
Mm-hmm.

103
00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:33,250
Eric
And, and then a few more years went by and I was at Penn state and the, the bolting, the, we kind of imported from Europe the whole concept of sport climbing. That would have been around 1984.

104
00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:43,830
Eric
um Alan Watson, Smith Rock was doing that. There was a couple of people in Colorado, eventually Kurt Smith and Mike Pott started bolting and others.

105
00:13:43,830 --> 00:14:00,990
Eric
ah Christian Griffith, I had mentioned, he was starting to do some bolting in the mid eighties. And then myself and a few other guys, and we may get to this later, first introduced the power drill to the New River Gorge in 1987, kind of the rest is history.

106
00:14:00,990 --> 00:14:01,240
Eric
Of course, the New River Gorge is now one of the most famous sport climbing areas in the world.

107
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,880
Robert
yeah

108
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:40,680
Eric
And so things moved very rapidly through the 80s. The first climbing gyms opened in the late 80s and you know competition World Cup climbing was ramping up in Europe and a few Americans like Lynn Hill and Robin Urbisfeld and Russ Kloon started doing some of those World Cup competitions. And so there was this international um exchange of climbers and ideas when it came to training for climbing, you know, rubbing elbows with people like Wolfgang Gulick or, you know, Todd Skinner or John Gill, the famous boulderer.

109
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:54,770
Eric
You know, i those are people that I was lucky spend a little bit of time with. And that really piqued my interest in training for climbing. And, you know, that was another avenue that I went down with my you know professional side of my climbing.

110
00:14:54,770 --> 00:15:11,370
Eric
you know, writing books and articles and making videos and eventually podcasts and things like that. So yeah, it's kind of been a life journey for me. And, you know, along the way, I got married, had a couple of kids, you know, did regular guy stuff too.

111
00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:30,250
Eric
And so ah very challenging to kind of balance all those things and try to be a high performer in all of those areas. And, you know, that's kind of a challenge that A lot of mid-age climbers come up with, I guess, you know, with career and family and kids and still trying to train and climb hard.

112
00:15:30,250 --> 00:15:34,650
Eric
It's a lot to do, but it can be done.

113
00:15:34,650 --> 00:15:34,920
Robert
Yeah, that's, I was going to say, like, um I went to school in Philadelphia.

114
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,280
Ari Grode
Yeah, what?

115
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:40,750
Robert
So I had some buddies that lived in Lancaster.

116
00:15:40,750 --> 00:15:41,560
Eric
oh

117
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:42,470
Robert
So the idea of ah people climbing from Lancaster is quite a ah funny thing to think about for me, because I started climbing when I was done with soccer at school.

118
00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:50,940
Eric
yeah.

119
00:15:50,940 --> 00:16:03,000
Robert
We had a school gym. And like you said, there weren't a whole lot of options in Pennsylvania for world-class climbing. So we didn't exactly push to go outside too much. I'm i'm curious, though. I know you...

120
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,690
Robert
ah did quite a bit of development at safe Harbor. Was that before ah the, the new river gorge?

121
00:16:06,690 --> 00:16:10,180
Eric
Correct.

122
00:16:10,180 --> 00:16:10,630
Robert
And if it's, if so, can you kind of speak, speak about that a bit or or was it kind of simultaneously?

123
00:16:10,630 --> 00:16:25,670
Eric
Yes. Well, well, um, yeah, yeah, yes and no. Um, here's what's interesting back in the late seventies and early eighties before sport climbing, uh, we being this small group of Lancaster County climbers that and include included Hugh, her and his brothers and, uh, Jeff Batzer, myself and my brother, we climbed at safe Harbor, uh,

124
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:34,370
Robert
ye

125
00:16:34,370 --> 00:16:35,900
Eric
as trad, you know and there's not a lot of gear there.

126
00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:36,930
Robert
Okay.

127
00:16:36,930 --> 00:16:37,300
Eric
There was maybe a dozen routes.

128
00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:38,690
Robert
Yeah.

129
00:16:38,690 --> 00:16:56,360
Eric
They were rated r and X in many cases. We would go there and set up top ropes so we could climb safely. And so we had um a 10-year period of occasionally climbing at Safe Harbor before we ever thought of putting bolts in.

130
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:56,550
Eric
ah

131
00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:56,980
Robert
Interesting.

132
00:16:56,980 --> 00:17:13,900
Eric
So to answer your question, I started bolting at the New River Gorge with my buddies there in 1987. And then it got me thinking, Hey, you know, some of those blank faces at safe Harbor could be climbable with some bolts.

133
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:15,290
Eric
And so went back to safe Harbor, i think in 88 and suck in the first few sport routes.

134
00:17:15,290 --> 00:17:21,160
Ari Grode
Thank you.

135
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:32,630
Eric
I remember the the day that we went there and bolted hydro man. I think that was the first route we bolted and also mental as anything to kind of side by side routes. And, uh,

136
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:51,330
Eric
And Hugh Herr was with me. We bolted some other routes along the river. This would have been the Susquehanna River in 1988. So it was around the same time as the New River Gorge, but then most of the safe harbor development, the first 100 routes went in in like 1989, 1990, 1991.

137
00:17:51,330 --> 00:17:52,490
Ari Grode
Okay, okay.

138
00:17:52,490 --> 00:18:03,000
Eric
And, you know, the railroad tracks were torn out, climbers started flooding in, there was access issues. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but Safe Harbor was technically closed for 20 years.

139
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,790
Ari Grode
Yeah.

140
00:18:06,790 --> 00:18:27,330
Eric
And then myself, along with the Access Fund and some other folks worked really hard for ah many years to get it reopened. And it's now in a great situation where it should be sustainably opened forever as a you know, linear park that allows climbing.

141
00:18:27,330 --> 00:18:46,400
Eric
And yeah, so that was kind of my nearby ah fix for route development. But when I had time and when the weather was good, I would go to the New River Gorge or even, you know, I bolted few dozen routes out in Wyoming and other places out west. But primarily I was developing in Pennsylvania.

142
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:53,960
Eric
West Virginia, and now here in recent years, actually the Red River Gorge. I've switched my allegiance from the New River Gorge to the Red River Gorge, which I joke about that ah because 20, 30 years ago, I would have said, oh the New River Gorge is way better than the Red.

143
00:18:53,960 --> 00:19:05,110
Robert
Yeah.

144
00:19:05,110 --> 00:19:14,160
Eric
But now I'm kind of like, well, they're both pretty awesome, but I prefer the Red. But that that's another story to be told perhaps.

145
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:32,020
Ari Grode
Eric, can I ask, ah you know, preceding um your move into sport climbing, I mean, you talk about, you know, going, you had a little crew that you were going to the Shawana Gunks and Seneca Rocks. I mean, mainly traditional climbing, like you mentioned at first, not even with with ah with cams or friends or anything.

146
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:44,600
Ari Grode
I mean, what did what did the progression look like there? I mean, like you said, trad climbing has a bit of risk associated with it. You're you're putting your neck out there on steep. I mean, i Rob and I have climbed at the gunks. i mean, it's steep trad climbing.

147
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:54,830
Ari Grode
ah You mentioned, you know, climbing up to 5'11". I mean, was was there some mentorship that was going on there or was this kind of just a psyched crew that started pushing themselves? And what did that look like?

148
00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:55,230
Eric
Yeah, yeah.

149
00:19:55,230 --> 00:19:56,300
Ari Grode
I guess, give me a sense of kind of what level you were able to get to before

150
00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:59,520
Eric
well

151
00:19:59,520 --> 00:19:59,990
Ari Grode
you know, you got introduced to the idea of bolted climbing.

152
00:19:59,990 --> 00:20:35,770
Eric
Right. Well, Yeah, well, Hugh Herr and Jeff Batzer and myself, we we did have a few older guys, including our older brothers that gave us some early mentorship, but we all each kind of hit the ground running as ambitious kid climbers ah thought we were hot shit, you know, because we were actually stronger than the the older people that were ah teaching us, but we didn't have the the real life experience. So we could have got ourselves in trouble. And ah Sadly, Hugh Heard Jeff Batser did eventually get themselves in trouble in a famous mountaineering accident.

153
00:20:35,770 --> 00:20:40,290
Eric
They had a winter time ah epic on Mount Washington.

154
00:20:40,290 --> 00:20:42,790
Ari Grode
Yeah.

155
00:20:42,790 --> 00:20:54,810
Eric
ah But, ah yeah, so, but climbing in the gunks before, especially before cams were available, you know, you would sometimes have to hang out on some steep, pumpy routes to be fishing in nuts into the horizontals or, ah you know, building blaze.

156
00:20:54,810 --> 00:20:57,950
Robert
yeah

157
00:20:57,950 --> 00:21:01,600
Ari Grode
Yeah.

158
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:15,030
Eric
yeah You know, climbing 511 trad the gunks was pretty hairri proposition Heck, climbing 5'9 at the Gunks can be a pretty hairy proposition, even today.

159
00:21:15,030 --> 00:21:15,240
Eric
ah you know, because there's, you know.

160
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:15,830
Ari Grode
Oh, yeah.

161
00:21:15,830 --> 00:21:19,110
Robert
Not at can. i live I live in New York now. And so the gunks is kind of like my backyard.

162
00:21:19,110 --> 00:21:19,860
Eric
Yeah.

163
00:21:19,860 --> 00:21:20,610
Robert
And yeah, there's certainly some routes where you rock up to and you don't know what you're getting on.

164
00:21:20,610 --> 00:21:27,390
Eric
Yeah, yeah. But there's, but, but it's some of the best trad climbing in the world. i the Gunks is just, you know, all time.

165
00:21:27,390 --> 00:21:27,760
Robert
For sure.

166
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,240
Ari Grode
Yeah.

167
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:45,860
Eric
It's just amazing. i you know, it's, I would put it right up there with, El Dorado Canyon and Yosemite for trad climbing. Obviously it's the gunks is different from those other two areas, but they're all three kind of all time for, uh, you know classic American trad climbing.

168
00:21:45,860 --> 00:21:56,370
Eric
And, uh, So, and then, you know, we got the first few friends when, when cams first came out, there was this one company making them. It was wild country. It was the Ray Jardine designed friend, which came in three sizes.

169
00:21:56,370 --> 00:22:00,570
Ari Grode
Mm-hmm.

170
00:22:00,570 --> 00:22:12,790
Eric
They had solid stems. And ah you know, so to have, you know, three of those cams on your rack, along with your nuts, you felt, you felt especially bad-ass at the gunks.

171
00:22:12,790 --> 00:22:16,850
Eric
The problem with the gunks is a lot of the placements are in horizontals. So you're playing a number one friend into a horizontal wall.

172
00:22:16,850 --> 00:22:20,650
Robert
yep

173
00:22:20,650 --> 00:22:31,790
Eric
Back then they had solid stems. So you'd have this solid stem that would be sticking three inches out, you know, with the the loop, you know, that you clip into at the very end.

174
00:22:31,790 --> 00:22:43,120
Eric
And so physically that's not a good setup. You know people would literally snap cams. So then we started like just girth hitching slings around the stem of the cam.

175
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:51,680
Eric
ah Until in the mid 80s, then they came out with ah the first friends that had wire stems like we have today.

176
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:52,450
Ari Grode
Yeah.

177
00:22:52,450 --> 00:23:20,210
Eric
I don't know that anybody makes a solid stem cam anymore ah because the wire stem is just obviously ideal for making a more resilient piece of equipment. And so, yeah, so through the nineties the cams got better. The little TCUs were game changing at the gunks that you could, you know the gunks originally 40s, 50s, 60s had tons of hundreds of pitons bashed in to the cracks.

178
00:23:20,210 --> 00:23:36,140
Eric
And so sometimes those pitons when they would fall out or break off would leave scars behind. And so the little TCUs were great for in those pin scars and into horizontals that were too tight to to get other passive gear into.

179
00:23:36,140 --> 00:23:45,920
Eric
And so that allowed climbing at the gunks to be stretched into the 512 zone. And, know, today there's 513 and even couple of is just, know,

180
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,140
Robert
Yeah.

181
00:23:47,140 --> 00:23:53,870
Eric
that is just you know so amazing on that rock doing it without bolts is pretty crazy.

182
00:23:53,870 --> 00:23:54,510
Robert
yeah

183
00:23:54,510 --> 00:24:15,930
Eric
But then i you know, when I got a power drill and met my buddies at the New River a Gorge, ah my days at the Gunks were few and far between anymore because I, you know saw this blank canvas, ah you know, walking out to Endless Wall and seeing three, four miles of cliff with virtually no routes, zero bolts was eye-opening.

184
00:24:15,930 --> 00:24:26,490
Eric
And so beginning in 1986, 1987, I spent a lot more time the next decade climbing at the New River Gorge than anywhere else.

185
00:24:26,490 --> 00:24:32,180
Robert
Yeah, let's jump into that a bit. how How did you originally get introduced to the New River Gorge? Because obviously, you know, you're...

186
00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:44,090
Eric
Yeah, what well, you know, if you go back to 1985, 1986, the big climbing areas in the east were, you know, Seneca Rocks, the Schwangunks, and then the the cliffs around North Conway, New Hampshire.

187
00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:57,120
Eric
Those were kind of the three epicenters for East Coast climbing. And I guess I first heard rumors of the New River Gorge ah around, so you know, when climbing at Seneca Rocks, which is a few hours away from the New, ah in the mid-'80s, that there was a new area, you know, with these great crack routes,

188
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:02,620
Robert
Right. Okay.

189
00:25:02,620 --> 00:25:29,180
Eric
ah in Southern West Virginia. And then the first small magazine article, I think it was in climbing magazine, maybe 1985 or early 86 came out with photos and you can see these long cliffs up on the rim of the gorge at the new, and it's like, wow, I need to check that place out. So my brother and I did a recon trip down there in fall of 86,

190
00:25:29,180 --> 00:25:45,410
Eric
yeah Again, there was no sport climbing there. So we were going down, there were trad racks. And I ran into a few of the locals. There was just maybe less than a dozen people climbing there at the time, um mainly from Harrisonburg, Virginia, Arts, Eddie Bagoon, ah from North Carolina, Doug Reed, ah from Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh.

191
00:25:45,410 --> 00:25:47,160
Robert
Yep. yep

192
00:25:47,160 --> 00:26:12,340
Eric
There was a crew like Rick Thompson and a few others. I ran into those guys in the fall of 86 and they welcomed me. They knew I was a young, strong, ambitious climber And they're like, hey, check out all these you know routes to develop. And, you know, a fun little anecdote is my first weekend at the New River Gorge in 1986, I ran into those guys at a cliff.

193
00:26:12,340 --> 00:26:28,430
Eric
ah They were kind of sieging, trying to do a first ascent through a roof system. They were taking turns going up and giving it goes and falling off. And me being a gunks climber, you know, who loved, you know, you don't climb at the gunks if you're intimidated by roofs because, you know, so many of the classic routes, you know, go through roofs.

194
00:26:28,430 --> 00:26:33,260
Robert
No, you do not.

195
00:26:33,260 --> 00:26:48,050
Eric
You know, FOOPS, the most classic of them all at Skytop. I climbed that in 1981. It goes through 10-foot roof. a big ten-foot roof And it's just spectacular. So I looked at this like five foot roof that they were falling off of at the new and I'm like, I think I can do that thing.

196
00:26:48,050 --> 00:26:51,310
Eric
And I went up and gave it two goes and did the first ascent that day. And these guys like, we're kind of like, who is this Eric Hurst dude?

197
00:26:51,310 --> 00:26:51,390
Ari Grode
Ha ha ha.

198
00:26:51,390 --> 00:26:56,270
Robert
Nice.

199
00:26:56,270 --> 00:27:10,540
Eric
You know, just came in here and plucked ah our first ascent away. And, you know, they offered me the sharp end. So what am I going to do Say no. And so my first weekend at the new, I put up my first, first ascent. It's a route called pilots of Becca.

200
00:27:10,540 --> 00:27:22,180
Eric
and it's 512A. So I did a twelve a first ascent. And so then those guys, you know, sheepishly said, well, why don't you come back next year ah and, you know, climb with us?

201
00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:35,980
Eric
And, you know, I hit it off with those guys and we had a great, next five years of putting up FAs and we all bought drills in the season of 1987.

202
00:27:35,980 --> 00:27:52,730
Eric
And so it was more um about examining the blank faces between the cracks. Whereas prior to the the bolting, the New River Gorge was all about climbing, you know, the splitter cracks that are there.

203
00:27:52,730 --> 00:27:57,490
Eric
So, you know, and kind of the rest is history at that point.

204
00:27:57,490 --> 00:28:11,800
Ari Grode
Yeah, I'd love to dive into that. I got two questions. um One, i mean, ah in the New River Gorge guidebook, there's a great write-up on you, and it does talk about that story ah that you that you just shared about you know getting your first first ascent down there on the first weekend at the new, which is awesome.

205
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:12,980
Eric
Yeah.

206
00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:13,520
Robert
Thank you.

207
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:24,070
Ari Grode
I'm glad you... I'm glad you elaborated on that. But two, you know you kind of undersold you know the New River Gorge. I think it said you were driving like round trip 800 miles to go down there.

208
00:28:24,070 --> 00:28:24,930
Ari Grode
like That's some serious dedication.

209
00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:25,940
Eric
yeah

210
00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:39,120
Ari Grode
But my my second question real quick is um you know coming from a trad background, you know I know that's, what was the what was the view on on bolts? I mean, was there any like ethical concerns about putting bolts into the wall?

211
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:39,690
Eric
Yeah.

212
00:28:39,690 --> 00:28:41,090
Ari Grode
or like and I always love exploring that a little bit.

213
00:28:41,090 --> 00:28:43,420
Eric
yeah

214
00:28:43,420 --> 00:29:12,140
Eric
Yeah, no, that's a great question. And it's a really a rich topic to drill down into because when, ah you know, there was a handful of American climbers from Alan Watts in the West to Christian Griffith and a few others in the Front Range to me and Jimmy Surrett and a few others here in the East Coast that imported this you know, bolting of of routes to open up harder climbing on the blank walls.

215
00:29:12,140 --> 00:29:41,710
Eric
And so in 1987, 88, most of us who are doing it, certainly at the new River Gorge, you know people like Doug Reed and Mike Arts, Eddie Bagoon, Rick Thompson, myself, Kenny Parker, up we were all very competent trad climbers. And we came to the sport as trad climbers and committed to, I'm sorry about that.

216
00:29:41,710 --> 00:29:42,710
Robert
Oh, all good.

217
00:29:42,710 --> 00:29:44,110
Eric
Do you edit these things?

218
00:29:44,110 --> 00:29:44,350
Robert
We do, yeah.

219
00:29:44,350 --> 00:29:45,140
Ari Grode
Yeah, yeah.

220
00:29:45,140 --> 00:30:09,310
Robert
Yeah, yeah.

221
00:30:09,310 --> 00:30:12,050
Eric
Okay, so just do a little snip there. I apologize for that.

222
00:30:12,050 --> 00:30:13,600
Robert
Yeah, yeah. No worries.

223
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:25,020
Eric
Yeah, so we were all trad climbers. And so when we did get power drills, we just weren't grid bolting from day one, quite the opposite. We used bolts sparingly.

224
00:30:25,020 --> 00:30:46,290
Eric
I know that first season, 1987, when we were bolting at the New River Gorge, we were just using bolts where there was not any trad gear available. So for instance, up Rick Thompson and I ah in the fall of 87, did the first ascent of Diamond Life, which is a bit famous at the New River Gorge because it was the first 513 at the New River Gorge.

225
00:30:46,290 --> 00:30:50,290
Robert
Thank you.

226
00:30:50,290 --> 00:31:17,570
Eric
And ah you know one of the first five thirteens in the eastern us s ah We did that in October of 87 and it was a route that had um two bolts kind of protecting the crux, but then there was a few trad pieces above and below that where trad gear was acceptable. So that first year we were basically putting up mixed routes, not sport routes, but we quickly, you know,

227
00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:50,410
Eric
but came to the realization that you people want to do one or the other. Either you carry a rack and c climb a trad route or you carry quick draws and climb a sport route. So from 87 to 88 to 89, quickly kind of transitioned or our mindsets were opened to the idea of maybe you know this route, if it's just bolts bottom to top, would climb so much better ah and allow you to you know climb at a higher level and, of course, make it safer.

228
00:31:50,410 --> 00:32:12,210
Eric
you know it it was always weird to me that you know we would put a bolt in on a route, and but still it might be dangerous. And it's like sport climbing should be safe. Trad climbing, the doors open to all types of danger. And so to have this gray zone of these mixed routes ah wasn't ideal, though it took us time to progress through that.

229
00:32:12,210 --> 00:32:21,230
Eric
And really it was Doug Reed who first, maybe in 1988, bolted around an endless wall called Legacy, where he bought he put bolts bottom to top.

230
00:32:21,230 --> 00:32:23,970
Ari Grode
Yeah.

231
00:32:23,970 --> 00:32:39,640
Eric
And most of the way, there's a crack that you can place gear into. So it would it would be a 5.11 trad route, but he's like, just bolted it and it was quite controversial, you know, to get to your question.

232
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:51,490
Eric
And there was a lot of discussion and this was going on by the way, at crags around the country. There was a brief period at the gunks where they started bolting routes like at lost city.

233
00:32:51,490 --> 00:32:52,590
Robert
Thank

234
00:32:52,590 --> 00:32:55,440
Eric
And,

235
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:06,990
Eric
That lasted, i think, less than 12 months. ah ah Quickly, the preserve and the local climbers said the gunks is not turning into a sport area, so they they chopped those bolts.

236
00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:27,780
Eric
And so the gunks has you know remained trad area, which is fine with me. ah But the New River Gorge, there was miles of blank walls or relatively blank walls that wouldn't be utilized without, or wouldn't be developed into what they are today without putting a lot of bolts in.

237
00:33:27,780 --> 00:33:47,840
Eric
And so, you know, by 1988, 89, think the first full sport route at the new, I think it might be a route that Rick Thompson and I put up called Welcome to Conditioning, which is a 512D at Fern Buttress on Endless Wall.

238
00:33:47,840 --> 00:34:06,450
Eric
I think we did that like in May of 1988, and it was the first route that you could just carry quickdraws on. um Now, there wasn't much gear on it, so it couldn't have it would have been probably rated X if it was a trad route. so you know But it was the first route you could climb with just quickdraws.

239
00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:20,390
Eric
And then I think it was later that year or the next year that Doug bolted the legacy crack, which then that kind of, you know, opened that Pandora's box of, okay, we're going to start putting bolts where you could put trad gear.

240
00:34:20,390 --> 00:34:34,500
Eric
And at the New River Gorge, ah it played out ah pretty quickly that people in most cases you know, would maybe not, wouldn't accept a splitter crack having bolts on it.

241
00:34:34,500 --> 00:35:01,370
Eric
yeah That would be going too far. But to put a bolt next to a nut placement or a TCU placement on what is not a splitter crack was quickly accepted as being gay fair game. And by the way, myself and others have ah then quickly went back and added bolts to some of our mixed routes, like Diamond Life, for example. If you go out there now to do it, I think it's a five-bolt sport route.

242
00:35:01,370 --> 00:35:31,530
Eric
But when I did it, it was a two-bolt mixed route with you know three pieces of trad gear. And so we went back. and, you know, added some bolts in to those mixed routes to, you know and put anchors up top, because that's kind of where we saw things were going, you know in the 90s. And, you know, now you go to crags, and you go to Clear Creek, or, you know, the Red River Gorge, or name a sport crag, and,

243
00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:37,660
Eric
you know It is almost like a climbing gym with a grid of bolts and top anchors. and you know We maybe didn't quite envision it going that far, but we wanted to ah simplify things and make c climbs enjoyable and safe.

244
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:49,430
Ari Grode
Yeah.

245
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:58,720
Eric
and and Mixed routes just didn't seem like the long-term thing to do. So we saw the light.

246
00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:12,430
Robert
Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a couple of things want circle back on that, but it's funny talking about Doug cause we had Doug on the podcast a few episodes ago and he talked about a legacy crack and about how at a certain point he sort of made his mind.

247
00:36:12,430 --> 00:36:20,740
Robert
Well, I'm climbing strong enough that if anyone has a problem with it, they can climb it however they want. And if they can't, then going to bolt it. So it's kind of, kind of funny hearing that, but I would love to, to dive in a little bit more on diamond life.

248
00:36:20,740 --> 00:36:23,660
Eric
Yeah.

249
00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:55,890
Robert
Cause as you mentioned, first 513 at the new and especially knowing that yeah you kind of put it up in this mixed style I would love to know more about how you decided to put like where to put the the two bolts where you didn't put bolts and and obviously eventually you made it kind of retrofitted to five bolts but what was that process like you know at the time were you guys aware that and Okay, this could be cutting edge, like this could be the first 513 in the new and one of the first in the East Coast, or were you just like, oh this looks really fun. Let's try to climb it.

250
00:36:55,890 --> 00:36:58,130
Robert
And then Oh, it just happens to be this great. Like, what was that process like and walk us through that?

251
00:36:58,130 --> 00:37:10,640
Eric
Right. yeah it's it's it's more of the latter. um i had, if you go to Baba City, central Baba City, where Diamond Life is,

252
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:28,890
Eric
ah 15 feet to its right is a really classic 511 A or B. And it was a route that I did the first ascent of with my brother in 1987. We did it as a mixed route.

253
00:37:28,890 --> 00:37:40,320
Eric
It's been retro-bolted into being a sport route. um I think it's called Sheer Energy. And it's ah it's a classic 511. ah So that route I had put up 87.

254
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:41,680
Robert
Thank

255
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:54,850
Eric
30 feet left of that, there's an arete that ah Rick Thompson and Mike Arts and Doug Reed and myself all worked on together that became a route called Bubba Side.

256
00:37:54,850 --> 00:38:22,540
Eric
I think Rick and I did the first ascent of it. And it's like around 12 BC. So, ah you know, there's this blank wall with an arete and then this crack route that I was involved in the first ascent of both of them. And in between is this blank wall that you can't help but look at it because it had just a few edges and ripples and pockets on it. But to our eyes, it looked really blank, probably not climbable.

257
00:38:22,540 --> 00:38:35,130
Eric
ah And so there was yeah you know this one year period where I had done these these routes on either side of this black wall and I kind of kept looking at it. And then finally one day,

258
00:38:35,130 --> 00:38:48,570
Eric
I went up top, dropped a rope right down over it, kind of wrapped in, felt the holds and you know Rick Thompson and I decided to to put the two bolts kind of where this 15 or 20 foot blank section was.

259
00:38:48,570 --> 00:39:06,010
Eric
I think we actually put in a piton down in the lower face and then there might've been a cam or a stopper above and below that So, we you know, we prepped the route, started working it ah and really right away knew there's a really hard boulder problem, maybe like an eight move boulder problem, which today would probably be graded V7 or something like that.

260
00:39:06,010 --> 00:39:13,480
Robert
Thank you.

261
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:28,670
Eric
Some slopey holds, some little pockets, dead vertical, small feet, you know quite technical, ah quite condition sensitive because of the sloper holds nature. you you You wouldn't want to be on the route on a hot, sweaty day.

262
00:39:28,670 --> 00:39:43,240
Eric
Well, we were on it in late October, so the conditions were pretty primo. And I think we we prepped it and worked it one weekend, came back the next weekend, and I think I sent it the next weekend. So it wasn't like a long-term project.

263
00:39:43,240 --> 00:40:01,980
Eric
We might have had three or four days of working it. Again, it was basically came down to a boulder problem. halfway up the blank wall and you could easily work it with the bolts that were there. And so when I sent that, ah we quickly knew it was next level.

264
00:40:01,980 --> 00:40:14,450
Eric
And, ah you know, I had never climbed an official 513. climbed tons of twelve s around the country. but never 513. So we knew it was kind of next level and proposed the 13A grade.

265
00:40:14,450 --> 00:40:21,760
Eric
um Certainly Doug Reed was climbing at the same level I was at that time. And so he was starting to bolt routes at Endless Wall that were on the fringe of 13A.

266
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,230
Robert
Thank you.

267
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:55,700
Eric
And certainly the next year in 1988, he put up a couple of 13s. I put up a few more and So while it was the first 13 that we put up, ah it was really the first of probably at the New River Gorge. Now there's probably 105 And so diamond life, it's easy to overlook it, but historically it's quite significant and it's it's pretty nails. You know, if you get on there ah with less than ideal conditions, it can feel impossible.

268
00:40:55,700 --> 00:41:06,160
Eric
And so I like hearing from ah Climbers, you know, once or twice a year, I'll hear from somebody who got on it or did it. And they're like, props, brother, that thing's hard.

269
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:20,640
Eric
You know, almost 40 years later, it's held up quite well as in terms of um being some pretty tough climbing. And, you know, one of my goals is to actually go back and re-redpoint that sometime in the next, sometime in the next two years, because 2027 would be the

270
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:26,510
Ari Grode
Oh, cool.

271
00:41:26,510 --> 00:41:29,760
Eric
would be the 40th anniversary of doing that route.

272
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:30,090
Robert
Oh, nice.

273
00:41:30,090 --> 00:41:31,040
Eric
So it'd be fun to try to go back and do it 40 years later.

274
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,860
Ari Grode
wow

275
00:41:32,860 --> 00:41:34,660
Robert
Yeah, be awesome.

276
00:41:34,660 --> 00:41:35,230
Eric
you know, we'll see.

277
00:41:35,230 --> 00:41:49,540
Ari Grode
Yeah, there's, I'll link it in the show notes, but just on Mountain Project, but there's some great photos of Bennett Harris, who we had on the podcast to chat about New River Gorge. ah You know, I'm assuming it's the crux, but those holes look, you can tell that it would be conditions dependent.

278
00:41:49,540 --> 00:41:49,730
Ari Grode
Those are some, some small little slopey crimps.

279
00:41:49,730 --> 00:42:04,820
Eric
It's yeah, it's small. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And you know, that type of, that style of climbing isn't my forte anymore back in that era. you know coming out of the gunks, which you know pretty much everything's vertical with an overhang at the gunks.

280
00:42:04,820 --> 00:42:04,910
Robert
Yep. yep

281
00:42:04,910 --> 00:42:17,090
Eric
I was really good climbing on small holds. That was, I guess, what I would call my wheelhouse back then. Whereas now I'm a seasoned Dredd River Gorge climber where I like to have a little better holds, but I like the the steep endurance nature to things.

282
00:42:17,090 --> 00:42:20,220
Ari Grode
Yeah.

283
00:42:20,220 --> 00:42:32,100
Eric
And so you know that speaks to the progression in my personal climbing, why why back in the 80s and 90s and even into the 2000s, I was all about the New River Gorge.

284
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:51,670
Eric
But in my older age, I've really come to appreciate oh what the Red River Gorge provides and you know, it's kind of fascinating. These two areas, they're only three hours apart, the new and the red, and they're both sandstone, but they couldn't be more different.

285
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:52,060
Eric
They really couldn't.

286
00:42:52,060 --> 00:42:52,510
Ari Grode
They're wildly different.

287
00:42:52,510 --> 00:42:53,880
Eric
The New River Gorge is this bullet hard, nuttle sandstone, which like when you drill it, you're literally, it's it's as hard as granite.

288
00:42:53,880 --> 00:43:01,790
Robert
you

289
00:43:01,790 --> 00:43:15,240
Eric
You know, it when you, I reflect on my bolting at the New River Gorge and You could have a brand new carbide tip bit. You would get six holes out of it and you'd have to pitch it out, you know, cause it was, it was just gone because the rock was so hard.

290
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:32,690
Eric
And at the red river gorge, you can have a half inch, carbide tip bit and you could drill 20, 30 holes into the Red River Gorge sandstone because it's so soft. It's, you know, when you're drilling into it, sometimes almost like a knife into butter or ah drill into mud.

291
00:43:32,690 --> 00:44:07,170
Eric
And so very, very different rock types in terms of bolting. And also because of that climbing, that softer rock has eroded more. So there's a lot more pockets and runnels and amphitheaters and caves where water over the millennia have undercut the rock and there's these beautiful amphitheaters and you know uh you know steep is is the is the word for the red whereas at the new the vertical nature of the climbing is more

292
00:44:07,170 --> 00:44:33,750
Eric
thin and desperate and cruxy. And so when you get down to actually climbing, the red and the new are so, so different. But each classic in their own way. I think a well-rounded climber should aspire to climb at a high level of both of those areas because they're so classic and they both require mastery, but in a different way.

293
00:44:33,750 --> 00:44:51,250
Eric
At the New, you have to figure out cryptic cruxes and be a real technical wizard. And some of the bolt placements are spicy at the New River Gorge because they're older routes when we bolted more sparsely.

294
00:44:51,250 --> 00:45:05,570
Eric
And, ah you know... Really, lot of New River Gorge routes are about solving a puzzle and climbing a boulder problem. you know Like I mentioned, diamond life is really just a boulder problem on a rope.

295
00:45:05,570 --> 00:45:25,730
Eric
ah Red River Gorge, not like that. It's steep, it's pumpy, but the holds are generally good. Oftentimes, the sequences are pretty obvious, though that's not always the case, but they tend to be pretty obvious. And so it tests you in a different way. It's more of a physical test, you know endurance, power endurance,

296
00:45:25,730 --> 00:45:39,330
Eric
your ability to rest and recover a route while wow on a steep wall is is critical at the red. Whereas at the new, many of those vertical routes have stances, no hand rests, gunk same way.

297
00:45:39,330 --> 00:45:40,330
Eric
you know you You do a hard sequence and then you get to ah a ledge and you stand and can recover as long as you want.

298
00:45:40,330 --> 00:45:40,620
Robert
Yep.

299
00:45:40,620 --> 00:45:47,160
Ari Grode
Yeah.

300
00:45:47,160 --> 00:46:03,120
Eric
And that's not the case on those steep red river borge routes as a rule. you know They are very pumpy and you will be climbing um and needing to hang on for 5, 10, 15, 20 minutes without ever getting a good stance on your feet.

301
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:20,000
Eric
And you know so you know for an older climber, the more endurance um and strategic nature of the climbing at the red

302
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:40,680
Eric
matches better you know for what a veteran climber has physically and mentally. Whereas the New River Gorge definitely rewards the person who has strong fingers and can boulder hard and is willing to risk their neck on you know some of these run out sections.

303
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:56,430
Eric
you know So yeah I think you know the New River Gorge is Definitely some super strong climbers there, but they're more young and you know not but so many guys my age climbing harder than new, I don't think, anymore.

304
00:46:56,430 --> 00:47:21,930
Ari Grode
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we we definitely want to spend a little bit of time, you know, debating the classic ah New River Gorge versus Red River Gorge rivalry. i do real quick. I'm sorry. I got to I got to ask one more question about your time at the new because, you know, you spent like a decade there bolting and establishing some of you know the the absolute classic test pieces ah at at the New River Gorge today. I mean, can you just talk a little bit about that environment?

305
00:47:21,930 --> 00:47:32,810
Ari Grode
Some of the people that were involved there? i mean, what was that like? you know, going to a place like that, you've got, you know, a blank canvas to work with. I mean, was it competitive?

306
00:47:32,810 --> 00:47:38,860
Ari Grode
Was everybody just like, what was the energy like, you know, developing like that, that kept you so psyched for so long to, to you know, make that big drive every weekend?

307
00:47:38,860 --> 00:47:42,100
Eric
Yeah.

308
00:47:42,100 --> 00:48:10,250
Eric
Yeah, it it became competitive at the New River Gorge. That first trip that I made 87, ah when I met the quote locals and there really were no locals, like nobody lived in Fayetteville and climbed at the new, everybody was coming from out of state, you know, Mike Arts and Eddie Bagoon from Harrisonburg, Virginia, Doug Reed from North Carolina or Alabama. I'm not sure where he was at at the time, but he was coming from the South.

309
00:48:10,250 --> 00:48:27,020
Eric
Eventually Porter Girard came from Kentucky and, Then a bunch of Pennsylvania climbers from the Pittsburgh area, Rick Thompson and others, ah would come down. And so in the track climbing days, it, I think, was just exploring, finding cracks, doing FAs.

310
00:48:27,020 --> 00:48:30,810
Eric
And I wasn't really so much a part of that because I arrived at the very end of that that era, um which would have been early in to mid-80s.

311
00:48:30,810 --> 00:48:33,990
Robert
you

312
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:59,610
Eric
And then the bolting began in 87 and then really accelerated after that. And, ah you know, when we ah showed up with drills and initially it was Rick Thompson and me and Mike and Eddie had a drill, Doug had a drill, Kenny Parker had a drill. There might've been like six drills, but there were weekends like in 87, 88, 89, where you could hear multipleudable drills going like at Endless Wall or at Bubba City ae where it was like it was like it was like men at work, you know, like in terms of, you know, there's a lot of routes.

313
00:48:59,610 --> 00:49:02,810
Ari Grode
Yeah.

314
00:49:02,810 --> 00:49:11,060
Robert
It's getting construction site over there. Yeah.

315
00:49:11,060 --> 00:49:14,180
Eric
It kind of Rick Thompson called it the golden age where like we had discovered these, you know, blank walls had holds, enough holds to be climbed in most cases, and they just needed to be protected.

316
00:49:14,180 --> 00:49:14,290
Robert
yeah

317
00:49:14,290 --> 00:49:23,260
Ari Grode
yeah

318
00:49:23,260 --> 00:49:41,790
Eric
And so then it was kind of a race uh for the classics uh and so it tended to be that we would you know climbers are a tribe and they tend to want to hang out and climb where other people are climbing so it was kind of interesting that that first use of power drills was at bubba city in 1987 that's where diamond life was so that first season with the drills we were almost all at bubba city it was you know again doug and mike and eddie and rick and me

319
00:49:41,790 --> 00:49:53,050
Robert
you

320
00:49:53,050 --> 00:50:18,180
Eric
and Kenny Parker and a few others that partnered with us. But most of the drilling happened at Bubba City in 87 into 88. And then during the 88 season, Endless Wall, we kind of realized these taller routes at Endless Wall could be bolted, though they they wouldn't take five or six bolts like Bubba City, but they would take 10 or 12 bolts maybe, or eight bolts if they're really spaced out.

321
00:50:18,180 --> 00:50:30,060
Eric
And so then we had this miles long wall the Endless to explore. And so we all kind of shifted our focus there for a year or two.

322
00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:36,200
Eric
But the wall was so big, we were spread out that, you know, we could, there's plenty of rock for everybody. And it was just like, who would bolt what?

323
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,590
Robert
Yeah.

324
00:50:37,590 --> 00:50:51,810
Eric
And so I remember, you know, like seeing Doug bolting something, it's like, ah damn, I wish I would have found that, you know, line before he did. um And then he would walk along the cliff and see me bolting Bullet to New Sky, which is a classic arete, one of the best aretes in the country at Endless Wall.

325
00:50:51,810 --> 00:50:54,730
Ari Grode
Oh, such a good one.

326
00:50:54,730 --> 00:50:55,250
Ari Grode
Yeah.

327
00:50:55,250 --> 00:51:21,210
Eric
And I'm firing at bolts. He's like, ah, I wish I would have got to that before Eric did. And you know so it was kind of competitive in a friendly way. in terms of, you know, trying to pick the plum lines, ah you know, Rick Thompson got his share and Mike and Eddie got their share. And, you know, there's just ah a small group of us that were feverishly ah at work.

328
00:51:21,210 --> 00:51:32,930
Eric
And, you know, you mentioned the drive that I did, you know, I was, ah you know, living in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, ah six hours away, you know, 380 miles from the New River Gorge.

329
00:51:32,930 --> 00:52:04,150
Eric
And ah so I would make that drive Friday night to the new, climb Saturday, climb Sunday, leave Sunday evening, get home at 2 a.m., two a m you know, go to work and, you know, do it again the next weekend if the weather forecast is good. And so like tons of driving and, you know, Doug Reed kind of set up shop there at the new, so he could have a little more of a leisurely pace, but the rest of us, ah you know, Mike and Eddie would be driving from Harrisonburg, Rick Thompson from Pittsburgh.

330
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:36,400
Eric
ah And we were all kind of weekend warriors. And so the weekend warriors, we had to get there and be super productive on Saturdays and Sundays. And you know Rick Thompson and i forged this partnership together where you know we were both ambitious and energetic and had visions of putting up hard routes. And so we teamed up together and developed for, i don't know three or four years pretty much exclusively together at Bubba City and Bridge Buttress and Endless Wall.

331
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:45,600
Eric
We put up a couple of hundred routes between us during that time frame. We had weekends where we were putting up four or five new lines, just the two of us, bolting, cleaning,

332
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,300
Ari Grode
Wow.

333
00:52:49,300 --> 00:52:59,330
Eric
you know, red pointing routes, you know, three, four, five of them in a weekend. And, you know, we kind of nicknamed ourself team machine because we kind of had this workmanlike mentality and it was ah really wonderful time.

334
00:52:59,330 --> 00:53:04,210
Ari Grode
a

335
00:53:04,210 --> 00:53:18,840
Eric
Doug was doing his thing for sure. He was putting up just as many routes though. He had a little more leisurely pace because he kind of was living there out of his Volvo ah for a couple of years and then eventually out of a house for a few more years.

336
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:33,050
Eric
And, you know, Port of Girard slipped in every now and then. and you know, but again, there were not yet really true local climbers. We were all, um you know,

337
00:53:33,050 --> 00:53:33,820
Eric
driving in from out of state.

338
00:53:33,820 --> 00:53:34,170
Robert
Thank

339
00:53:34,170 --> 00:53:46,560
Eric
And it was a wonderful time. I look back on that and I'm grateful to be a part of that and to you know be one of a half a dozen or so people who really helped put the New River Gorge on the map.

340
00:53:46,560 --> 00:54:01,230
Eric
And of course, in the modern era, they've just taken it you know to the next level. There's a slew of classic 514s and there's even one or two 15s there, I guess one officially. And so,

341
00:54:01,230 --> 00:54:16,850
Eric
and so yeah you know The next generation's taken the new where my generation couldn't couldn't take it, but we we we did our job and hopefully you know put up some classic routes that'll stand the test of time.

342
00:54:16,850 --> 00:54:45,530
Robert
I think it's safe to say your generation has definitely contributed quite a bit to that legacy. So ah thank you for doing that because Ari and I have have certainly spent quite a bit of time climbing down at the new, so we've at least reaped the rewards. But I think it's probably a perfect time to to jump into the the next chapter of you kind of climbing at the red. You said you sort of switched allegiance and you obviously already alluded to kind of the difference in what it takes to bolt there and what the different rock quality is like.

343
00:54:45,530 --> 00:54:51,150
Robert
When did that, shift start happening for you? When did you start switching the drive to ah the red, as opposed to the new and yeah, talk about that a bit.

344
00:54:51,150 --> 00:55:03,120
Eric
yeah Yeah, ironically, the yeah yeah yeah ironically the shift was kind of compelled for the sake of my sons.

345
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:03,420
Eric
So my wife and I, Lisa and I have two boys, Cameron, who's now 24 and Jonathan who's 22.

346
00:55:03,420 --> 00:55:11,100
Robert
Okay.

347
00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:15,530
Eric
But ah growing up in our house with a climbing wall in the basement and you know lots of weekend trips to various areas and

348
00:55:15,530 --> 00:55:21,700
Robert
Thank you.

349
00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:36,480
Eric
summer trips out west, our our kids were always around camping and climbing. And my wife and I are both very active people. So our kids did all types of sports. They played football all the way through high school. and But yeah obviously they were introduced to climbing and really took to it.

350
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:59,230
Eric
And so when they were like seven years old, they started to do some lead climbing. And ah the the problem was... Where do you take a seven-year-old to lead climb at the River Gorge? It doesn't exist. you know first you know There are no bolted five-sixes or five-eighths or five-nines. And you know when there are bolted routes, there they're spicy.

351
00:55:59,230 --> 00:56:06,570
Eric
And also the the the sequences as routes get harder are reachy. Exactly.

352
00:56:06,570 --> 00:56:06,700
Robert
Yeah.

353
00:56:06,700 --> 00:56:07,130
Ari Grode
Yeah.

354
00:56:07,130 --> 00:56:25,540
Eric
So, I mean, people who are... Sub six feet often complain about how Ricci the new is. you know You get on some of those classic Doug Reed routes, because Doug was a giant, you know big, strong, and Ricci. He put up some classics that you know shorter people get on and swear they're impossible.

355
00:56:25,540 --> 00:56:47,070
Eric
And, you know, so the new is not a great place for kids. That's kind of the bottom line for a number of reasons. So as our kids were getting into into lead climbing, you know, there were places out west we could take them to that had like Maple Canyon and some of the limestone areas that had bolted routes with plenty of intermediate holds and safe, you know, safely bolted routes.

356
00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:59,130
Eric
lines that we could put the kids on and they could you know learn to be lead climbers. And they had tons of skill. They just needed the routes to get onto.

357
00:56:59,130 --> 00:57:19,890
Eric
Lo and behold, it's like, well, maybe we need to start going to the Red River Gorge because yeah I had climbed there a little bit, you know, a handful of times in the ninety s And, you know, I knew the nature of the climbing. And generally, you're not being shut down by reaches. You're being shut down by lack of fitness or not knowing how to climb that style of route at the Red.

358
00:57:19,890 --> 00:57:35,210
Eric
And um so we took the kids there. I think, ah you know, Jonathan might've been seven or eight and Cameron and nine or 10 when we first went to the red and, you know, immediately they were lead climbing five, 10 and five 11 because they could, you know, hold the holds and, you know, clip the bolts and make the reaches and, ah you know, and, you know,

359
00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:43,040
Robert
That's awesome.

360
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:48,500
Eric
My, ah you know, they both led their first 512 at age eight at the Red River Gorge, and they both led their first 514 at the New River Gorge, Cameron at age 11 and John at age 10 and a half.

361
00:57:48,500 --> 00:57:55,970
Ari Grode
Wow. Wow.

362
00:57:55,970 --> 00:58:01,710
Eric
So when Jonathan did his first 14, he was the youngest person in the world to climb 514. Now that record's been broken since then, but he was

363
00:58:01,710 --> 00:58:05,110
Robert
wild.

364
00:58:05,110 --> 00:58:10,490
Eric
aged 10 years and six months or something like that when he did God's Own Stone, which is a legit 14A.

365
00:58:10,490 --> 00:58:10,730
Robert
Thank you.

366
00:58:10,730 --> 00:58:15,020
Eric
And so, you know, we were onto something, you know, the red was perfect for kid climbers and they wouldn' they wouldn't be handicapped the way they would be at the New River Gorge by reach.

367
00:58:15,020 --> 00:58:23,810
Robert
yeah

368
00:58:23,810 --> 00:58:41,000
Eric
ah So yeah, we really switched gears and, you know, we'd still go to the new every now and then, but it was a lot better to drive the extra three hours to the red and, you know, try to dedicate every three or four day weekend we could take when the kids were in school to go to the red.

369
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:54,950
Eric
You know, if they weren't in their football season, we would drive to the red on those longer weekends. And you know, that really helped spur on the growth of my kids as, you know, competent high end climbers.

370
00:58:54,950 --> 00:59:25,180
Eric
And you know Cameron's going on to climb 515A, Jonathan's climbing 14 plus and also exploring big walls in Yosemite. And so there're they're all kind of doing, they're on their own. My wife and are empty nesters now, but the red was really critical resource and you know for their for their development as young sport climbers. And you know it's such the red is such a easy transition from indoor climbing, which is why it's so popular today, is you can learn to climb at a gym in Lexington or for that matter, Chicago or Columbus or you know Cincinnati or wherever.

371
00:59:25,180 --> 00:59:36,670
Ari Grode
Yeah.

372
00:59:36,670 --> 00:59:37,650
Robert
um I've got friends from New York that that drive, you know?

373
00:59:37,650 --> 00:59:39,900
Eric
And you can you can go to the red.

374
00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:40,180
Robert
Yeah.

375
00:59:40,180 --> 00:59:52,000
Eric
Yeah, you can go to the red and right out of the gym, kind of feel at home because theyre the the movements and the holds and the close bolts It's kind of, in some cases, like an outdoor gym.

376
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:52,330
Eric
And so the red is, of course, become arguably the most popular climbing area in the world in terms of the sheer numbers.

377
00:59:52,330 --> 00:59:55,120
Ari Grode
Mm-hmm.

378
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,620
Ari Grode
Yeah.

379
00:59:59,620 --> 01:00:15,690
Eric
um I think the Franken-Era in Germany and maybe Klimnos in Greece would be close to the numbers. But on on ah on a nice weekend in the spring or fall, there's probably one to 2,000 climbers in the Red River Gorge region.

380
01:00:15,690 --> 01:00:19,640
Eric
And at the New River Gorge, there might be 300 climbers.

381
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:20,140
Ari Grode
yeah

382
01:00:20,140 --> 01:00:34,260
Eric
Because again, the the new is so much more severe in its own way, and it's not an easy transition from the gym. So all these climbers are that are being minted at the climbing gyms in the big cities,

383
01:00:34,260 --> 01:00:50,810
Eric
ah is you know driving to the red, good outdoor climbing for them. Driving to the new, it can be a real scary, humbling experience because it is more of you know, a bit serious, you know, committing area.

384
01:00:50,810 --> 01:01:03,990
Eric
And so, yeah, so for various reasons, we went to the red mainly for the kids early on. And then, you know for me, I had to learn to climb that style because again, I was never about the steep,

385
01:01:03,990 --> 01:01:28,390
Eric
pumpy endurance kind of climbing back in the day. So that's, you know, that's an old dog learning new tricks for me. And, you know, seeing my kids run up and down these steep walls, it's like, shit, I can do that. The moves aren't that hard. I just need to learn to hang on and learn to climb quickly and learn to rest on these routes and develop my aerobic energy system, not just my anaerobic energy system.

386
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:53,840
Eric
And so it was kind of a 10 year spin up for me from When I first went to the red, climbing 12A felt really hard because they were just so pumpy. And now, and you know and now ah At age 59 or 60, I've climbed a couple of 13 Cs at the Red and you know still kind of aspire to maybe see if I could push it another letter or two, which may or may not happen.

387
01:01:53,840 --> 01:02:02,760
Eric
That's a story yet to be written. But ah the fact is just the style of climbing is more conducive not only to kids but to older guys, ironically. And so it's just an amazing area all around.

388
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:05,220
Ari Grode
Bye.

389
01:02:05,220 --> 01:02:08,580
Eric
If it's not raining, it's tough to beat.

390
01:02:08,580 --> 01:02:23,500
Robert
Yeah, that's that's awesome to think about. I mean, so much in there. I mean, like I selfishly want to ask you about Kalymnos and things as well, too. But i'm um before we kind of leave the red, i think I would love to to know like two things.

391
01:02:23,500 --> 01:02:33,530
Robert
One, when did your decision to start like bolting there and and like developing come about? But then two, and maybe you answer this one first, is

392
01:02:33,530 --> 01:02:35,750
Eric
Thank

393
01:02:35,750 --> 01:03:04,810
Robert
you said you had to get used to this style and I'm assuming like everyone, anyone that knows anything about you as a climber, like knows that you obviously are one of the expert trainers for climbing, right? Like you got fizzy vantage, you have training for climbing podcasts, all of that. And you know, if you listen to struggle episodes, like obviously you guys dive very deep was the red, something that sort of spurred that on because you had to develop this new climbing style and you had to think about what your limitations were, or were you already training for climbing way before that? And,

394
01:03:04,810 --> 01:03:07,990
Robert
and kind of talk about like, when did that realization of, Oh, I can train for this and lean into it happen.

395
01:03:07,990 --> 01:03:12,270
Eric
Yeah, well, right.

396
01:03:12,270 --> 01:03:29,650
Eric
Right, well, first of all, on the whole training thing, just in a nutshell, I've i've been performance-minded climber from the get-go. ah In high school, ah the two sports that I participated in, now this is going back to like 1980, but I participated in cross-country and gymnastics.

397
01:03:29,650 --> 01:03:46,450
Eric
And the reason for that is is, as a climber, those seem like the two high school sports I could do that might actually develop some physical traits that would be helpful in climbing. You know, developing the endurance and kind of the lightness and stealth of a runner and, ah you know, the upper body strength and power of a gymnast.

398
01:03:46,450 --> 01:03:55,200
Eric
And so those are the two sports that I participated in because as a, as a young climber and in high school, I thought, oh, that it could actually help my climbing out a little bit.

399
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:55,750
Robert
Yeah,

400
01:03:55,750 --> 01:03:58,460
Eric
Playing football, what would it do for my climbing? You know, it didn't, you know, make sense or, you

401
01:03:58,460 --> 01:04:02,080
Robert
yeah.

402
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:20,480
Eric
you know And so ah as as I went through my teenage years and college years and into my 20s and 30s, I'm trained in the physical sciences. So I'm wired for science and being very analytical and calculated and research oriented.

403
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:44,360
Eric
ah That's just how I live my life. So it made sense to kind of apply that mindset to to climbing performance. And so I started, you know, reading and studying. And I mentioned earlier, you know, rubbing elbows with other climbers who trained, which there weren't a lot of back in the eighties, you know, but there was Lynn Hill and John Long and ah Jim Collins and Christian Griffith and Pat Amen and,

404
01:04:44,360 --> 01:05:10,930
Eric
ah you know, in in Europe of Wolfgang Gulick and Ben Moon and, you know people like that, Jerry Moffat, of course, and, you know, at the Gunks, there was a few local climbers who were into training. And so ah we would exchange ideas, a lot of trial and error. And, you know, that that put me on this 40 year journey of kind of becoming a climbing researcher and climbing coach. And, you know, I wrote my first training for climbing book and,

405
01:05:10,930 --> 01:05:32,580
Eric
1994. There's been several editions and several other books. There's been a dozen foreign translations. And so it's really not a journey that I had planned. It totally developed organically that I kind of became this you know, international expert at training for climbing, but that was built one stone at a time over 40 years.

406
01:05:32,580 --> 01:05:36,860
Eric
And, you know, 40 years ago, nobody trained for climbing or, you know, only a handful of people did.

407
01:05:36,860 --> 01:05:38,500
Robert
right

408
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:41,710
Eric
Now today you go to Instagram, all you see is people training for climbing, you know, because you've got climbing gyms, the hangboards, the campus boards, all these lifting devices and force devices.

409
01:05:41,710 --> 01:05:42,760
Robert
yeah

410
01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:48,620
Ari Grode
Mm-hmm.

411
01:05:48,620 --> 01:05:53,440
Eric
And, you know, I think there's a segment of people who train more than they actually climb, you know, today, whereas,

412
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:54,860
Robert
Oh, yeah, definitely. Definitely.

413
01:05:54,860 --> 01:06:07,670
Eric
For us, training was a ah means to the ends, which was trying to do hard routes. And so in any case, I kind of had that lifelong journey that, you know, it was the performance side of climbing.

414
01:06:07,670 --> 01:06:25,150
Eric
ah And then, you know, I had in my climbing this desire to be involved in route development and and giving back and contributing. ah Now, circling back to the Red River Gorge, when I arrived there, you know, here's this amazing climbing area with a thousand existing routes.

415
01:06:25,150 --> 01:06:44,660
Eric
You know, this is a decade ago, it's 2000 now or more. But um there were so many routes to do that the last thing in my mind was developing routes at the red. So even though I had done you know, 200 first ascents in Pennsylvania and 200 first ascents the new and first ascents elsewhere around the country.

416
01:06:44,660 --> 01:07:03,450
Eric
I went to the red and it really wasn't on my mind. I wanted to learn the style of climbing. I wanted to blame my kids so they could climb their best. And so the first 10 or 12 years climbing at the red, i never, you know, was involved in putting up any routes or anything like that. i was just a climber, you know, and appreciating all the hard work that the locals at the Red had put in.

417
01:07:03,450 --> 01:07:07,390
Robert
Yeah, yeah.

418
01:07:07,390 --> 01:07:08,060
Robert
yeah

419
01:07:08,060 --> 01:07:09,930
Eric
And it takes a lot of work to put good routes in at the Red because of the cleaning and the soft nature of the rock and, you know, putting in bomber bolts is a little more tricky at the Red than then it is on the solid rock at the new.

420
01:07:09,930 --> 01:07:21,550
Ari Grode
Okay.

421
01:07:21,550 --> 01:07:33,930
Eric
And ah so it's not until the last four or five years as I've become more of a, you know, kind of developing more of a local mindset as the red.

422
01:07:33,930 --> 01:07:35,330
Eric
I mean, i still live in Pennsylvania, but I have a cabin at the red and I spend, you know, maybe three months of the year at the red now.

423
01:07:35,330 --> 01:07:37,620
Robert
Thank you.

424
01:07:37,620 --> 01:07:40,720
Ari Grode
okay

425
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:54,070
Eric
And so I'm kind of feel almost like I'm a local. And so I've kind of became aware of the new crags, the secret crags, the private crags.

426
01:07:54,070 --> 01:08:08,830
Eric
And, you know, over the last five years realized there's still a ton of rock to develop at the red. Like all the stuff that's in the guidebook is what's open to the public and, you know, well known and perceived as being the red, but there's this whole other section of climbs that for various reasons, aren't in the guidebook, aren't,

427
01:08:08,830 --> 01:08:17,290
Ari Grode
Thank you.

428
01:08:17,290 --> 01:08:48,930
Eric
yet open to climbers or maybe are being developed and acquired. And, you know, the Red River Gorge Climbers Coalition has done a fabulous job over the last decade, you know, fundraising and acquiring crags. There's been some private acquisitions like the Muir Valley acquisition and the Ash Branch acquisition and a few others, ah you know, private you know individuals have bought crags and opened them to some degree to the public. and

429
01:08:48,930 --> 01:09:05,550
Eric
But the RRGCC just purchased um hundreds of acres of land, this Ashland you know oil land that has been just sitting there um untouched for 20 And it was...

430
01:09:05,550 --> 01:09:16,640
Eric
you know and it was You know, the state came in and cleaned up all the old rigs and, you know, leaking wells and, you know, did the all the reclamation.

431
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:23,950
Eric
And a year or two ago, it became known that that land was going to be put up for sale. So long story short, there is this 2,000 acre land purchase that occurred back on January first

432
01:09:23,950 --> 01:09:32,380
Robert
Thank you.

433
01:09:32,380 --> 01:09:54,940
Eric
that has miles of rock on it and already three or 400 new routes that have been put up. And so when that all was coming together over the last few years, my eyes opened up as now kind of a local at the Red or semi-local and also someone who is a veteran at route development.

434
01:09:54,940 --> 01:10:35,670
Eric
I'm like, hey, here are some virgin crags that I can go in with a fresh eye and and take a look at. and actually contribute to the Red River Gorge the way I did to the new. i Never it will be comparable, but it is something I enjoy doing and contributing. And so, yeah, over the last couple of years, I've put up maybe 15 routes, 10 routes, and not not a huge number, ah but I've also supported my sons, ah particularly Jonathan has probably put up 30, maybe even close to 40 routes at the Red River Gorge now.

435
01:10:35,670 --> 01:10:50,160
Eric
aye oh many of them at on the new Ashland land, but some of them at existing crags where he finished up, you know, unfinished projects of other people. And so, yeah, it's been really fun to contribute. and I'll tell you, I think,

436
01:10:50,160 --> 01:11:05,680
Eric
um The development on the Ashland land, there's some amazing crags there. There's one area called the venue, which if anybody has been to the madness cave at the mother load, ah think of that as even something bigger with more routes.

437
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:06,280
Eric
And that's what the the venue amphitheater has to offer.

438
01:11:06,280 --> 01:11:07,820
Robert
Oh,

439
01:11:07,820 --> 01:11:09,090
Ari Grode
wow

440
01:11:09,090 --> 01:11:33,440
Eric
And I think, The RRGCC is in the process of putting in parking and trails, and hopefully by the end of the summer, we'll have enough of that infrastructure in place that their plan, I believe, is in September to kind of put all of the routes, trails, parking onto the web and have it kind of be officially open to the public.

441
01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:44,820
Eric
Whereas it's open to the public now, but it's kind of unofficial. They're not encouraging people to go there except for the developers just because there's not the infrastructure, you know, the trails and, you know, the bolts are still being put in.

442
01:11:44,820 --> 01:11:46,360
Ari Grode
Yeah.

443
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:59,060
Eric
And so my son, Jonathan, and I really were involved in that in recent months. And Jonathan single-handedly put up most of the hard routes in that amphitheater that I'm talking about.

444
01:11:59,060 --> 01:12:14,680
Eric
And it's going to be quite um kind of the crown jewel of the Ashland purchase is that is that venue, Craig. And so, yeah, people should see that information becoming readily available and The information to park and hike and go in and check out all the new routes should be online later this season.

445
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:21,660
Robert
Thank

446
01:12:21,660 --> 01:12:23,740
Eric
So that's exciting.

447
01:12:23,740 --> 01:12:34,350
Ari Grode
Yeah, I'm sure that's pretty cool to, you know, one, get to develop some roots with your son, but also to, you know, pass the torch a little bit, uh, from somebody who was so prolific on the root development side in the eighties and nineties to, to now, you know, continuing to.

448
01:12:34,350 --> 01:12:37,440
Eric
yeah Yeah, I'm really blessed to have two boys to have two boys that you know are still really into climbing and actually even more important, they're still into climbing with their dad.

449
01:12:37,440 --> 01:12:45,710
Ari Grode
Yeah.

450
01:12:45,710 --> 01:13:00,850
Eric
ah you know That's something special about, I often point out that climbing families are unique because you know it's this bond between the parents and the kids you know that you know both parents and kids love climbing.

451
01:13:00,850 --> 01:13:14,350
Eric
And it's something they can do together. And, ah you know, i get to hang out with my 20 something kids and go climbing. And like most 20 something kids want to have nothing to do with their parents, sadly, because there's just no common ground between 24 year old and ah

452
01:13:14,350 --> 01:13:19,960
Robert
Thank you.

453
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:31,650
Eric
60 year old, you know, what is the common ground in most cases, there's not much there. But with climbing as our common ground, I still get to hang out with my kids and they still enjoy hanging out with their old man.

454
01:13:31,650 --> 01:13:50,800
Eric
And so that's a beautiful thing. That's why I am very fond of telling young folks, you know, if you if the day happens that you start a family, while it might limit your climbing early on, you know, when the when you have infants, long-term, it can be a beautiful thing to be a climbing family.

455
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:52,820
Eric
so Okay,

456
01:13:52,820 --> 01:13:54,690
Ari Grode
Yeah, absolutely.

457
01:13:54,690 --> 01:14:06,310
Robert
yeah that's fantastic. We definitely want to be respectful of your time. I know we don't too much time left, but before this episode, we actually put a little poll out on Instagram and and got a couple of listener questions for you.

458
01:14:06,310 --> 01:14:07,130
Robert
So it might be ah might be a fun time to ask a couple of those.

459
01:14:07,130 --> 01:14:08,670
Eric
cool.

460
01:14:08,670 --> 01:14:25,370
Robert
You kind of mentioned... ah private land and private crags. And somebody actually asked us smile at me, what are your thoughts on private and hidden crags? And, you know, I guess maybe a way to expand on that would be kind of where do they fit in terms of that purpose?

461
01:14:25,370 --> 01:14:25,950
Robert
Right. Cause obviously there's a difference between just something that's hidden or something that's going to be available soon.

462
01:14:25,950 --> 01:14:34,530
Eric
Yeah, i yeah I have mixed feelings about that. um If it's a private crag where there is a pathway or progress to opening it, then I am all for being engaged in development and the talks and planting the seeds that will eventually get areas opened.

463
01:14:34,530 --> 01:14:37,720
Robert
Yeah.

464
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:52,420
Ari Grode
Thank you.

465
01:14:52,420 --> 01:15:04,990
Eric
And yeah again, I spent... ah you know, 10 or 15 years working towards getting the safe harbor area here in Pennsylvania fully open to climbers.

466
01:15:04,990 --> 01:15:27,640
Eric
I've been involved in access issues at other areas. you know, New River Gorge has had its share of access issues over the years. And so I've always felt like if there's private land with 0% chance of it being opened, I personally why i don't i don't want to invest my money in terms of hardware because putting up routes is expensive.

467
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:27,660
Robert
For sure.

468
01:15:27,660 --> 01:15:27,820
Eric
You can spend a couple hundred bucks on a single route easily.

469
01:15:27,820 --> 01:15:30,890
Ari Grode
Yeah.

470
01:15:30,890 --> 01:15:51,610
Eric
And then you spend a lot of time. you know It's you your life you're giving away, you know hours of your life. And so if ah if an area is private and closed, I don't personally see the value in sinking the money and the time into something that's never going to be open to the broader public and just be kept a secret by a few folks.

471
01:15:51,610 --> 01:16:08,230
Eric
Now, I guess if it was my crag and I owned it, then I could, you know, see, you know, putting the time in. But if I owned it, I would be looking for a pathway to make it available to the public. You know, there's lots of models out there for people that bought crags and then made them available to the public.

472
01:16:08,230 --> 01:16:32,770
Eric
ah But ah There's certainly a lot of crags both at the Red and elsewhere around the country that are on private land that have been developed and that are kind of these secret in the know areas. And, um you know, I understand the value to the local climber maybe as a training area, but just it just didn't seem like where I, for the most part, wanted to invest my time.

473
01:16:32,770 --> 01:16:43,830
Eric
And so every area that I've put bolts in has either been an open crag or an area that, is on a pathway or there's some hope to to getting it open.

474
01:16:43,830 --> 01:17:13,180
Eric
And the the development, while it's still private and not officially open, might seem counterproductive, but it actually helps keep the momentum going if there's you know, like Safe Harbor, if it wouldn't have been fully developed, ah it probably would have never been opened as a park. But the the local um municipalities and land managers looked at it as a resource, you know as an asset,

475
01:17:13,180 --> 01:17:50,850
Eric
that existed because there was hundreds of routes there. And so there is, would have just said, hey, let's open up this road cut to climbing and there was nothing there, it never would have happened because there would have been so many roadblocks. It's dangerous. It's loose. You know, that's not what we want to do with the land. But you you you kind of by developing it and kind of the proof ends up being in the pudding that it's a valuable resource and, you know, land managers today, hopefully they can accept it once they wrap their head around what liability there might be or not be.

476
01:17:50,850 --> 01:18:08,900
Eric
So yeah, it's, I guess ultimately asked everything has to be on a case by case basis. There's no hard and fast rules, but for me personally, I don't want to invest a lot of time and money into developing routes that have no chance of ever being open to the public because I want my work to be, um you know, not done for my own gratification, but to contribute, you know, a valuable, enjoyable route to the community.

477
01:18:08,900 --> 01:18:20,090
Ari Grode
you

478
01:18:20,090 --> 01:18:33,040
Eric
And so in the case of the Ashland acquisition, kind of we knew last year at this time that this purchase was likely to happen. It was just a matter of when it would come to fruition.

479
01:18:33,040 --> 01:18:35,480
Eric
And that happened in January. And so it's been foot on the gas pedal ever since then, both in terms of people out there and developing routes on the Ashland property, but also the RGCC beginning to do trail days and beginning to map out parking areas and you know get things up to speed to open it to the public more broadly, hopefully this fall.

480
01:18:35,480 --> 01:18:57,260
Robert
Thank

481
01:18:57,260 --> 01:19:23,470
Robert
Amazing. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. um Another question that was kind of interesting was from Total Wanish. Obviously, since you're a pioneer in training for climbing, he wanted to know if there's any, like, how you think training for climbing has impacted climbing from like a cultural standpoint, and if it's all positive, or if there's any negative impacts of the training community you kind of mentioned.

482
01:19:23,470 --> 01:19:24,550
Robert
Some people are only training these days, but

483
01:19:24,550 --> 01:19:39,010
Eric
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that, that, I mean, that's a very broad topic to to talk about. i mean, there's many aspects to it. yeah Obviously with climbing now in the Olympics ah you know, it's been a world cup sport for 30 years, but it's now in the Olympics.

484
01:19:39,010 --> 01:19:53,800
Eric
um It looks like it's going to stay there. you know, we have the l LA Olympics coming in 2028 with climbing and medals and speed lead and bouldering. So it's, you know really gotten a foothold you know,

485
01:19:53,800 --> 01:20:21,430
Eric
you know The climbing gyms mostly yeah have a youth team and coaches. And ah so it's yeah know it's it's not football yet. It's not soccer yet. But climbing has got a beautiful grassroots development ongoing. And so naturally, um people are embracing training you know for enhancing performance, just like they would in any other sport. And I mentioned earlier that 40 years ago, when I started training,

486
01:20:21,430 --> 01:20:32,300
Eric
almost nobody trained for climbing. When I first approached Climbing Magazine like in 1987 and said, I want to write a training column for you. They're like, Eric, nobody trains for climbing.

487
01:20:32,300 --> 01:20:51,340
Eric
Our readers don't want to hear about training. And now that's like, again, all you see is talk of what you can do to climb better, climb harder. And so now with that, you know there's the dark side. Whenever you get you know a sport that has got money to be earned and medals to be won,

488
01:20:51,340 --> 01:20:55,030
Eric
ah you know, there are shady things that can happen.

489
01:20:55,030 --> 01:20:59,070
Ari Grode
Thank

490
01:20:59,070 --> 01:21:18,440
Eric
ah And, you know, of course, you know, any sport that's weight sensitive, whether it's figure skating, gymnastics, rock climbing, even cycling, you know, eating disorders are a concern, you know, people that starve themselves to lose weight and you know, perform better.

491
01:21:18,440 --> 01:21:34,880
Eric
But that's not sustainable. As people discover in every sport, you end up injured, miserable, depressed, sick. it's It's bad for your body in the long term. And, ah you know, so that's something that a growing pain that every sport has to deal with and climbing has dealt with it.

492
01:21:34,880 --> 01:22:02,630
Eric
you know, to a small degree on in the competition ranks of, you know youth and young adult climbers, um you know, performance enhancing drugs is another one. I have no doubt that there's performance enhancing drugs in climbing ah you know, every sport, you know, whether it's NFL football or you know, famously like bike racing, Tour de France, such stuff that ah you know, the, the,

493
01:22:02,630 --> 01:22:11,320
Eric
well-funded athletes who have the money to spend, on doctors and, and drugs, you know, black market drugs, you know, they, um are kind of, I think ubiquitous in some of those sports.

494
01:22:11,320 --> 01:22:14,320
Ari Grode
Thank

495
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:29,730
Eric
And, oftentimes the athletes are one step ahead of the drug testers. Uh, so I don't think it's rampant in climbing, but I have anecdotal evidence and it just seems likely that there's some of that going on,

496
01:22:29,730 --> 01:22:57,540
Eric
perhaps in in climbing and competition climbing. And you know today with all of these ah research peptides that are available that have steroid-like effects or can actually you know tell your body to release growth hormone and recover faster, you know there's all these um drugs that are readily available, again, through dubious means and black markets and such.

497
01:22:57,540 --> 01:23:21,420
Eric
that I would imagine there's a share of amateur athletes, just like those amateur bodybuilders who dabble in that stuff. And I mean, I guess I'm a libertarian at heart in terms of I don't want anybody telling me how to live my life. And I don't want to tell anybody how to live their life in any area for the most part. If you're not hurting somebody else, if you're just hurting yourself,

498
01:23:21,420 --> 01:23:30,820
Eric
go for it. And so i um don't have a super strong opinion, though, certainly when it comes to competition, you'd like there to be even playing field for sure.

499
01:23:30,820 --> 01:23:32,490
Ari Grode
Yeah.

500
01:23:32,490 --> 01:23:33,950
Robert
For sure.

501
01:23:33,950 --> 01:23:50,790
Eric
And so there is some degree of drug drug testing in competition climbing. It's not as extensive as it is in other sports, ah but it is there because there's a concern that there's, you know,

502
01:23:50,790 --> 01:24:02,960
Eric
some athletes who might be, you know, engaged in those types of practices. But yeah again, I am not involved in the World Cup climbing myself in terms of coaching.

503
01:24:02,960 --> 01:24:24,210
Eric
ah So I don't have any deep insights into that. But I, you know, kind of been around people and physicians and researchers enough to kind of, you know, see what's out there and you So I guess that's kind of maybe one of the subtle dark sides that you asked about when it comes to climbing and performance.

504
01:24:24,210 --> 01:24:42,390
Eric
ah But kind of more ultimately, the bottom line is I think the um and kind of my summary to this whole conversation is think I'm so blessed to have discovered climbing all those years ago. And it's been life changing, life enriching ah for me.

505
01:24:42,390 --> 01:24:58,900
Eric
And I've seen how it has changed and enriched the life of countless other people, both in my family and just total strangers. I see how climbing brings people together. You can go to an international climbing area like Kalymnos and there's people from all corners of the world there.

506
01:24:58,900 --> 01:25:13,650
Eric
Some of them maybe with competing political or religious beliefs, but they are all getting ah along at the crag because we share this amazing sport. You know, we have a shared passion for climbing.

507
01:25:13,650 --> 01:25:24,820
Eric
And so how climbing can bring people together, make people ah better individuals and empower them and enrich their life.

508
01:25:24,820 --> 01:25:47,910
Eric
um It's like, such a wonderful thing that i I think if there's more climbers in the world, it's a beautiful thing because, you know, climbing makes the world better. You know, so those little dark things I mentioned in passing shouldn't detract from the massive good that I believe the activity of climbing can be in people's lives.

509
01:25:47,910 --> 01:25:59,460
Robert
I think that's very well said. And and luckily there's an, ah bunch of incredible people like you in the climate community that are doing such good work to kind of make it more accessible to provide, you know, products like fizzy vintage that can help you perform at your best while still kind of maintaining those guidelines.

510
01:25:59,460 --> 01:26:02,720
Eric
Mm-hmm.

511
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:24,880
Robert
So I think we have a bunch of other listener questions. We have some stories that we'd love to hear about, but I don't think we have the time for that. So maybe we, uh, We have a round two later on in the future, but we are appreciate you taking the time to sit down with us. This has been fantastic. I know Ari and I have loved every second of this, but ah maybe just take some time to tell people where they can find more about you and your podcast and your products.

512
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:37,270
Eric
You bet, you bet. Well, on social media, um Instagram, it's at Eric underscore Hurst, spelled H-O-R-S-T. There's the little funny umlaut over the O that makes it said Hurst, even though it looks like Horst.

513
01:26:37,270 --> 01:26:49,460
Eric
ah Also, my training for climbing Instagram is at training, the number four climbing. ah My website is trainingforclimbing.com. My YouTube channel is training the number for climbing.

514
01:26:49,460 --> 01:27:06,890
Eric
ah So if you Google me, I've been around long enough and have you know enough material on the web and strong enough SEO that I should be the number one thing that comes up in in Google if you type training for climbing. And and you had mentioned my nutrition brand, Fizzy Vantage.

515
01:27:06,890 --> 01:27:27,970
Eric
Not everybody needs performance nutrition. The first thing a climber or non-climber needs to do is try to eat right and ah live a healthy, active life. That's the foundation. But if you're training hard and trying to optimize your recovery and your adaptations and perform your best, well, then performance nutrition can be a difference maker.

516
01:27:27,970 --> 01:28:07,030
Eric
And so that's kind of what I founded Fizzy Vantage to do is be climbing specific. All of our products are evidence-based, clinically dosed, doctor recommended and used by top climbers around the world. People like Alex Megos and and and Jonathan Segrist and you know many others ah use FizzyVantage Nutrition, really believe in the value it brings. And not everybody needs it, but if you're training hard and trying to be the best that you can be, then I would encourage you to take a look at FizzyVantage.com to see what we have there and kind of read some of the science behind our products.

517
01:28:07,030 --> 01:28:14,970
Eric
um Again, it's FizzyVantage spelled with a P-H-Y-S-I, like physical, not it's not F-I-Z-Z-Y, like fizzy.

518
01:28:14,970 --> 01:28:15,640
Ari Grode
you

519
01:28:15,640 --> 01:28:16,410
Eric
And

520
01:28:16,410 --> 01:28:18,670
Robert
We'll have it all in the show notes. No worries.

521
01:28:18,670 --> 01:28:29,150
Eric
Yeah. So put a link in the show notes. And, you know, if anybody wants to try out a Fizzy Vantage product, you can use checkout code SAVE10 and get 10% off your purchase.

522
01:28:29,150 --> 01:28:44,190
Eric
Or if you subscribe to our email list, you'll get a coupon code through that. And so there's my little two cents about Fizzy Vantage. it's It's been a fun thing to develop a line of products that are so well received and utilized.

523
01:28:44,190 --> 01:28:56,900
Eric
healthy and beneficial. You know, we're not selling snake oil. Yes, there's a lot of nutritional snake oil out there, but everything that we have, as I said, is evidence-based, clinically dosed, ah tested for purity.

524
01:28:56,900 --> 01:29:07,310
Eric
It's good, legitimate stuff that has value to someone who's serious about training and climbing performance. So if that's you, dear listener, check it out.

525
01:29:07,310 --> 01:29:11,490
Ari Grode
Amazing. All right. Thanks so much, Eric. we We really appreciate you sitting down.

526
01:29:11,490 --> 01:29:15,070
Eric
Yeah, thanks for having me. Great to talk to you guys. Let's do it again sometime.

527
01:29:15,070 --> 01:29:16,070
Robert
Yeah, this was great.