Ground Up 21: High Country Highlights with Sam Dospoy

0:00 Sam hard to, yeah, it's just really cool that y'all get to inter interview him. Robert Yeah. He certainly lived some lives too, you know, like he kind of had a couple different periods, but yeah, it was a fun one for sure. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Yeah. Yeah. So I would just hate to record one of these and then, you know, find out at the end that we got no audio from the guests. Sam Oh, yeah. Ari Grode I wouldn't even know what to say, you know, Sam Totally. Robert Yeah. Sam It's like, oh, I want to do do that again. so Robert Yeah. You crushed it. We botched it. Sam yeah. Robert Let's run it back. Sam But, yeah, I got a little head cold that I'm, like, still kind of recovering from a little bit. Robert Um, Sam I know it's probably like kind of gross to those people listen to people sniffling on a podcast, but I'll try to keep it down a little bit. Ari Grode That's all right. We can, we can edit, we can edit it out. Sam Added to sniffles. Okay. Robert Yeah, yeah. No worries.

0:40 Sam Cool. Ari Grode looks like you're, you said you're in your garage. Like this is where you're, cause you do a, you do van work, right? Sam yeah mean Yeah, I'm in my shop here. So that's the shop. Got a sprinter, pro master, the tools and stuff. Got a board right there. Ari Grode I got the, got the Woody. Sam little training wall. Robert Oh, that's rad. Sam Yeah, man. Robert That's rad. Sam Yeah. Robert Yeah, Sam Yeah, it's a sweet zone, dude. I enjoy it here. Robert yeah that's sick. Sam It's fun coming to work. Ari Grode What do you, you're like, uh, you're building out people's vans basically. Is that the business? Sam Yep. Ari Grode Okay. Sam Yep. Ari Grode Okay. Robert what's What's the name? Ari Grode How long you been doing that for? Robert Yeah, what's the name of the business too? Ari Grode Sorry. Sam It's a stand-up van, and i've been doing it for about six years now. Robert Yeah. Sam So, yeah. Ari Grode Oh, cool. Sam Yeah, it's fun, man. Ari Grode What got you into that?

1:21 Sam Well, I lived in a van for two years, just traveling around. and Are we starting, by the Robert Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ari Grode Yeah, we're, we're rolling. Sam Rolling. Okay, cool. um Yeah. So I lived in a van for two years. It was a minivan Honda Odyssey. ah Just traveled around out West, climbed a good bit. Sam um Spent some time in like California and where else? Arizona, Waco tanks, just like dirtbagging basically. And Sam i Saw all these six sprinters and was like, dude, I need that. You know, I need a van I can stand up in. And that's like where I got the name for the business.

2:03 Robert Oh, nice. Sam um Ari Grode That's clever, yeah. Sam Yeah. And, uh, but yeah, man. Yeah. So I just did that for a while. And eventually was like, I need my own van and built my own out and did one. Would've been it for a while, took it a apart, built it out. Nice. Sold it. And then that kind of like got me rolling and yeah, I've been doing it ever since. Robert Love that. Ari Grode Did you have kind of a mechanical the like background like that? Sam So. Ari Grode Or did was this a lot of learn on the fly type of stuff? Sam Yeah. So a lot of it was learned on the fly for sure. Like with the systems, like electrical systems, plumbing systems, heating, all that. I learned a lot of that on the fly. And then some through like some different training courses I took and um through friends who, you know, like I got an electrician buddy who ah does that work. And so he kind of got me started on some of that stuff. um But I went to product design school and then, Sam I did a lot of like furniture design classes when I was there and that's like what I was really into. So the woodworking part came pretty naturally. And then I've done different like carpentry jobs and work in that field for a while prior to doing the van building.

3:17 Sam So had a good setup of like tools and knowledge on how to build stuff. ah Yeah. Ari Grode you you got to partner up with uh pat goodman i know he does like custom floors get it get like a custom floor in the van yeah yeah they're like works of art Sam Oh yeah. Dude, yeah, Pat kills it, man. Yeah, dude. Oh, I know. is His floors are so cool. yeah Yeah, he does really cool work um and also puts up or has put up a lot of cool routes as well. But, yeah, Pat's the man. Sam and Ari Grode yeah yeah we're trying trying Sam Have y'all had him on the podcast? Robert He's on the list. Sam He's on the list. Robert Yeah. Sam Cool. Yeah, he'd be good one, man. Ari Grode He's, I think he's a little, i think he's a little hesitant to sit down, uh, you know, as a lot of people are, but we're, we're hoping that eventually we'll, he'll, he'll break and and come on.

4:01 Ari Grode Cause yeah, he's, I mean, man, he's got, yeah. Robert Yeah, just named a crack. Sam ah Yeah. Robert Do you know him pretty well? Ari Grode So you're, Sam Man, I know Pat decently well. Yeah, we've we've climbed together a few times and, um you know, chatted a decent bit about different routes that he's put up around here. um yeah know, I think we maybe first started chatting or met whenever i was trying Ishmael for the first time and, you know, chatting with him about that. Robert ok Okay. Okay. Sam no But yeah, man. Yeah. pat Pat's a buddy and he's he's super cool. And yeah, I respect him a lot for sure. Robert Yeah, he's... Ari Grode Yeah, i mean, he's kind of a legend in the area that... Because you're you're in the you're in like the high country area, right? Sam Yeah, high country, North Carolina. Yeah, I live in like Lindville Falls area. So I'm like five minutes from Lindville Gorge.

4:46 Ari Grode Okay. Sam My shop's in Boone though. Ari Grode Oh, wow. Sam And yeah, lived in Boone for think like 17 years now. Ari Grode Okay. Sam So originally, was born in Chicago, moved to Asheville when I was 11 years old. Ari Grode Are you from that area, or Sam And then I feel like I kind of grew up in Asheville and then moved to Boone to go to school at App State. And yeah, stuck around, man. Ari Grode OK. Sam Still here and you know, traveled and lived different places for short periods of time, but yeah, I always ended up coming back here. Ari Grode Yeah, I think the ahead, Rob. Robert Did you go ahead Ari? No, was going to say when you were living in that, like, did you start climbing when you were in, in Asheville or was it like once you kind of went to App State and then we're in Boone, it's like, okay, this is kind of fun.

5:28 Sam Yeah, I started climbing when I came up here Boone to go to, yeah, my sophomore year from college, I think I was like 20 years old, started climbing, and yeah, it's like, Robert Cool. Robert Nice. Sam Pretty awesome place to start climbing. There's you know it's boulders within like 15 minutes of town or less. So yeah, was pretty quick transition from like being a climber at the gym here at the college to going outside and climbing. Robert Yeah, the access would be incredible. Ari Grode Yeah, I'm pretty stoked. Robert Like, I feel like, um, i had a similar trajectory where I was like, okay, once I was in college, our school had a climbing gym and that's how I kind of like got into it. But then I was in the middle of Philadelphia.

6:08 Sam Mm-hmm. Robert So there wasn't boulders 15 minutes from school. Sam Oh, yeah. Robert There wasn't like a lot of sport crags or like, you know, there's some choss piles a little ways away, but like, I didn't have that transition into outdoor climbing until much later on. What was it like being able to you know, rock up to a place like the dump or, or go bold or somewhere like 15 minutes away, as you said, as like a college kid while you're, while you're learning how to climb as well. Sam Man, it was awesome. it was It was super fun. You know, like you kind of get little glimpses here and there from folks of like where the – rock climbing is and you know you have a buddy whose like brother took him there like five years ago and you're like try to find the place again you know because there wasn't information out whenever I first started climbing you know like um you know Kaya wasn't a thing not that it's really a thing here anyways but you know there wasn't a guidebook for the area there's really no information the only thing that was out there was this website called Boone Boulders that my buddy Matt DeCamera made and it was like ah website with Robert Nice.

7:10 Sam like maybe 20 random YouTube videos of like different boulder problems. and So that was like kind of the information that was out there. Robert That's awesome. Sam um But man, it was a lot of fun, you know, going out with just like total noobs. Like we were all just really fresh and didn't know what we were doing. Like I think the first probably like 10 times I went climbing, we brought ah couch cushions out to the boulders. Ari Grode Nice. Sam So we're like taking diggers on couch cushions, you know, like, ah yeah. Ari Grode nice Robert That's incredible. Were you like grabbing like the beat up ones from like dorms? Sam Yeah, man.

7:50 Robert I feel like my school used to like toss out couches like every three years and like you could kind of like put that in your apartment or whatever. Sam Oh, yeah. Robert whatever So are you guys just like looking for those little free yard sales from App State or how is that Sam Well, my buddy, yeah, my buddy, he had this like really shitty couch that he just like loved so he was like kind of protective of it but it had this like really long cushion that we would take out it was like maybe like five feet long so he would like hold that over our heads and like hike to the boulders yeah ah Robert That's hilarious. Ari Grode Yeah, that's true. not not Not much of a backpack strap on those couch cushions. Sam no dude yeah that was ridiculous like some people would be out there who are like actual climbers with pads and they're just like oh do you like want to borrow this Robert That's awesome.

8:35 Sam for this pie bowl you're trying, you know? We're Robert No, dude, this is Tempur-Pedic. Sam like, yeah, we're good, dude. Robert We're set, man. We're we're fine. Sam We're like 20 years old, give a shit, you know? It's funny, but yeah. Robert That's awesome. So wait, it was that was that website that your buddy Matt put together, did that have like strictly videos and beta on like what you were climbing or did it also have approach beta? Like I kind of imagined seeing like four or five college students with gigantic couch cushions, like walking on trails, really not knowing where they're going or like were you guys kind of guessing or did you at least know where you're headed? Sam Dude. Dude. Sam Weird, man. We like maybe got some rough information from some folks, you know, like I think I had one of my buddies, his like brother took him climbing at one of these areas. So we like went to Bowling Rock Boulders and like kind of found it.

9:19 Sam And then um I remember going to Little Wilson, which is like this crag off to 221. Robert Okay. Yep. Ari Grode Yeah. Robert yep Sam That's like, it's cool for like, you know, your first time climbing or like, um know if you want to go get a few like moderate fishes in, you know, it's pretty cool spot. But he, like the directions for it were like drive down 221 until you see an old fridge and then take a left at the fridge that's like off the side of the road. Sam And that was the direction. And so, yeah, we ended up finding it, but yeah, it's like, there wasn't information really on that website either. It was just kind of like, From what I remember, it was just like random YouTube videos of a few different boulder problems. So if you like knew the zone, like if you knew how to get to Grandmother or Blowing Rock, ah you could probably find the boulder and you have like beta on a climb or two.

10:11 Sam But yeah, that was kind of the extent of it. Ari Grode Yeah, that's, I think that's something that's kind of unique, and especially nowadays, because I mean, there's still really isn't, I mean, obviously there's more documented social media on people doing some of these, especially the boulders, but that's kind of a unique thing to that area is there's really not like a guidebook or a lot of like true documentation about like all these different areas. Robert Earth. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode I remember, remember, ah My wife and I went out bouldering in in the high country one time and like, it's, it's a fun, it's a different experience, but you, you kind of just, we went to grandmother and it was like, I had done a little bit of searching online for some of these problems, but we really just showed up with a couple of pads and, Sam Mm-hmm. Ari Grode walked around the area and just tried to find what looked cool to climb. And then you'd run into other people out there.

10:56 Sam Mm-hmm. Ari Grode And it makes for this different experience where instead of, you know, being so problem driven, like guidebook driven, like I'm going to try this, this, and this, you're like, Oh, well, we're just going to out and climb whatever looks cool. And then, you know, we'll partner up with these random people who say, Oh, I'm trying this problem. And so we'll try it with them. And it, Ari Grode I don't know. Sam Yeah, no. Ari Grode it's It's a unique experience that I feel like most people don't have nowadays because everything's so well documented. Like there's guidebooks for everything, approach beta. So like, yeah, maybe maybe speak to that a little bit because that's kind of unique to that that high country 221 area. Sam Yeah. Sam Yeah, man. i mean, that's a great observation and that's exactly what it's like. And, you know, there isn't a guidebook here, which that's, you know, been a conscious decision amongst the community for quite some time now to not have a guidebook.

11:43 Sam ah I think that's a really cool aspect of the climbing here, you know, to go out to any of these zones, like you have to talk to people and figure out beta and, you know, make connections with folks. Sam And that's, you know, that's your guidebook is, you know, what your homies are telling you. um And so, it is really cool in that way. I think it definitely adds to the community aspect of the area. Sam Um, just getting to meet some old heads, you know, who've been around for a long time and know where everything is. And then, know, not only that, but it's, it's a little bit, uh, more of an adventure, I feel like to go out to these areas and, you know, kind of find your own way. And like you said, go and just climb on whatever looks cool.

12:31 Sam Um, Robert Yeah, that's... Sam So yeah, that ah that is definitely a cool and unique part of the climbing in the area. Robert yeah I can imagine as a ah college student, especially too, those like little bits of, I guess, misinformation or lack of information also make that like adventure element feel even even more magnified because like you're at that stage of just like, oh, everything's new, everything's cool. like Sam Mm-hmm. Robert what were What were some of your favorite moments or like favorite projects or boulders that like really stood out when you were like just getting into or like okay i'm hooked this is like a blast i'm i'm leaning into this for a while Sam Oh, man. i don't know. That's tough because I feel like it's a constant process of finding a new climb to be psyched on.

13:13 Ari Grode Thank you. Robert yeah Sam You know, like every, as soon as I send something, I'm like, oh, I want to do this one. And it's like the list never ends. So it's like, yeah, I mean, that definitely started somewhere. Sam I'm trying to remember where, but i would say like probably going going out to Blowing Rock Boulder's was like my first like deep dive into any of the areas around here. um And yeah, I mean, just kind of going up through the grades of Blowing Rock, you know, was like the Mushroom Boulder, you know, there's like probably a bunch of V5s there that are really cool and fun. And then Colt 45 was like my first V7, you know, which is like soft, but Sam it's pretty cool and yeah i remember doing that my buddy tilly i like had just done it and i was like stoked was like dude i was doing cold 45 you know and you he had been around for longer than me and he'd been clowning probably like two or three years before me at this point and uh he's like yeah dude things like pretty hard for v4 isn't it i'm just like damn dude you know so yeah you know it's just classic but uh Robert ah Ari Grode ah Ari Grode roasted oh man Robert I'm sorry.

14:34 Ari Grode oh man Sam But yeah, man, mean, I'd say like Blowing Rock Boulders is kind of like my first like zone where I like, yeah, really got into it and tried to climb everything I could there. And then, you know, it's like that process is still going. like there's still, you know, stuff there that I haven't done. So, ah you know, it's, yeah, always something new and hard to do. And this area in particular, I feel like sets up for hard climbing really well, hard bouldering for sure. Yeah. Sam just like the rock is so like dense and good here that like don't know, it forms small holds that stay on the wall and aren't jaws. So it's, uh, yeah, there's a lot of hard stuff.

15:18 Sam Um, but yeah. Ari Grode What did you said this was about, um, like 15, 17 years ago. Sam the Ari Grode What did the, I mean what did the community then look like? Sam Mm-hmm. Ari Grode I mean, who were the, who were the people that were kind of, was there a big bouldering community and then who were some of the people, I guess you maybe looked up to or who were kind of driving, you know, development of the scene? Sam Yeah. I mean, yeah, the scene at that point. So, I mean, the gym scene was basically the SRC at the college, which is like the the rec center. And there was a climbing wall there with like a 50 foot top rope slash lead wall and like a bouldering area below it. And so that was kind of like, that was the gym scene. And that's where I met all of the people I climbed with at the time.

16:01 Sam Um, There's definitely a community of folks at that time who had been around for quite quite a while and who established a lot of the climbing in the area. People like, um, like Dean Melton, Joey Henson, um like Jim Horton. Sam um you know, those are all like bouldering guys. And then, uh, there's like, you know, Mike Grimm. Mike True. um Those are two of my like early track climbing mentors. and they you know They were around at the time. Sam um But man, there's been like a lot of people developing here throughout the years. And um you know definitely don't want to like try to list them all off because I know forget a bunch of people. but um But yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely a tight community at that time.

16:44 Ari Grode Yeah. What? Sam And you know also people like Mike Stamm. i'm putting up just like crazy stuff at the time, you know, like intermounting flame, like that boulder problem he put up. Sam Maybe like, I don't even know when that was, like 2007. There's an Andrew Kornlack video about it. It's really cool. um But it's just like, you know, kind of like futuristic for the time. Ari Grode well Sam it's like a gymnastic, like run and jump boulder that's really hard. And, you know, he undergraded everything he did. I feel like during that time, like all of his ascents are like, ah you don't have to take him with a grain of salt because he was so strong. Robert Yeah. Ari Grode you Sam But yeah, and then, you know, Pat Goodman, he's putting up a bunch of hard trad routes at the time. Like Dave Sherritt was doing that with him Mike's name as well. And yeah, man. so there there was a crew of like really good climbers around here putting stuff up for for a while and that They were around whenever I started climbing. I didn't really get into the scene with any of those dudes at all during that time. You know, it was just like a fresh Gumby.

17:59 Sam um But yeah, like it was cool, like eventually getting to meet a lot of those dudes and hang out with them and become friends. You know, and they're super welcoming and tell you everything that they know and give you beta. Sam And yeah, so yeah, it's a cool part of the community as well. Robert Yeah, that's awesome. you You mentioned Pat, you mentioned you also had a couple of early trad mentors. When did, when did your interest, it sounds like bouldering was like, you kind of like first got introduced to, but when did you start getting interested in climbing some ropes and and pulling on some trad problems? Robert And and what did that process look like early on and how'd that progress a little? Sam I'm trying to think. So I i started bouldering and then it probably took me really not that long to start ah route climbing. I'm trying to think. Maybe I bouldered for like six months or maybe a year before I started route climbing.

18:56 Sam I think it was just because of yeah was like a poor college student. I didn't have money, so I just had like climbing shoes and a chalk bag for a while. Robert Right. Robert Couple of couch cushions. Sam um Robert Yeah. Sam you Some couch cushions, yeah. ah but yeah Eventually, I went to places like the Dump or Little Wilsons um and yeah started doing some sport climbing. Robert Okay. Sam and so I did that for probably... like four or five years, maybe five years. Yeah. Before I started track climbing. um And then, yeah, like I never really, ah still to this day, haven't really like dug into sport climbing. And I think a lot of that is because of you know, this area doesn't really lend itself to that.

19:41 Sam There's not a lot of sport climbing options. I mean, there's some, and I feel like I've kind of like done the ones that like I'm stoked on. or like most of them that are around here, um just cause there's not a huge quantity of them really. Um, so trad climbing is kind of like the obvious progression. If you're going to be in this area and you're psyched on climbing routes, like you kind of have to learn how to track climb. Sam Um, and so I started track climbing, um yeah, probably around five years after i started climbing and, I learned from a A couple dudes were like pretty, like, just like important guys that I met at that time who helped me ah figure it out.

20:29 Sam And those were Mike True and Mike Grimm. um Ari Grode Okay. Sam I met Mike Grimm because he was one of the owners of Misty at the time, Misty Mountain Threadworks. Ari Grode Oh, nice. Sam And I had just started working there. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam I did my internship there and from college. And ah yeah, so I met him and then through him and Mike True. Robert Okay. Sam And, you know, they're like pretty much only trad climbers. ah And they, yeah, they, they got me stoked and showed me how to place gear, you know, how to lead and all that and um learn some cool tricks and tips from them early on. You know, I think having a, having been mentors like that, who've just been around doing it for so long was crucial and really helped me like so much to just learn the ways.

21:16 Sam track climbing. And also, like, their perspectives were cool, too. You know, like, ah you know, they've been around for so long doing it. And, you know, they're not, like, staunch traditionalists or anything. But, you know, they have definitely, like, they kind of gave me perspective on, like, what it means and why it's cool to, like, do things ground up, for instance. You know, like, and I'm not super hard on ethics at all but um you know it's it's just cool like getting that perspective and learning about the ways that things have been done prior to like you know retro bolting spark climbing uh came around so yeah um so yeah Ari Grode Yeah, one of my first ah like exposures to your climbing was ah like Misty Mountain used to make a couple.

22:02 Robert Mm-hmm. Ari Grode They had like a couple of pretty cool YouTube videos. They've got one of you doing, I think it's the Castaway at Shiprock. Sam yeah Ari Grode And then there's somebody else doing, i can't I can't remember the person's name, doing the brooch. Sam Oh, yeah. Ari Grode But man, I've watched those videos so many times. Sam Oh, yeah. Ari Grode But ah yeah, yeah, yeah. Sam Yeah, Leaf. I think that was Leaf. He's one of my good buddies. Yeah. Ari Grode leave Leaf Carter, right? Sam Yep. Ari Grode Yeah, that's a sick video. Like such a cool perspective of, of, or such a cool, like, yeah, perspective of that, of him climbing the brooch. Um, I remember watching you climb the ah castaway and just thinking, holy shit, he looks like he's climbing monkey bars right now. Ari Grode Like there those holds must be like absolutely enormous. And I went and climbed it, uh, Sam Man, they're pretty big on the lip there, actually. Those are some pretty good holds.

22:46 Robert Is that how you describe it, Mari? Ari Grode Yeah, but there is like a jug or two, like real good jugs on it, but a lot of them were a little smaller than I was expecting. Sam but Ari Grode The first time I got on that, I was like, oh shit. Sam Yeah. Oh, have you been on that route? Ari Grode Yeah, I did it. um Sam Nice. Ari Grode I've been on it a couple times, but I did it last, maybe last fall, I think. Robert i think it was last last fall, yeah. Sam Oh, hell yeah. Ari Grode Like la late, yeah, or late summer or something. Robert remember getting texts about it. Ari Grode Yeah. Yeah, finally actually got the send. But I remember just thinking like, oh, these holds have to be like enormous. Sam Nice. Ari Grode He's just like campus and right through it. Sam Yeah, Ari Grode And I was like, oh, they're not they're not quite as good as I was expecting. Sam yeah. Robert ah Robert Yeah.

23:26 Sam That's funny, man. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode But ah yeah. Sam That's a great route, man. I love that zone. Shiprock, God, the stone there is just like unreal. Ari Grode Oh, the I mean, the castaway is phenomenal. Sam Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ari Grode um Yeah, ship in general, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to ask. I mean, so you've you've been you were bouldering a lot. So obviously you're building up a base of strength and like power and, you know, all the things that come with bouldering. Sam Mm-hmm. Ari Grode I mean, how did that ah how did your trad climbing take off, you know, with some of those skills that you developed bouldering? Like, did you did you take to it pretty quickly or what did that look like? Sam Yeah, I think so, man. I think bouldering is the key for hard climbing. and It's like the hardest, I feel like the hardest skill or ability to get in climbing is that like strength that you get from bouldering.

24:13 Sam um And then like the endurance aspect, I feel like comes really quick relatively to that. So yeah, starting from a you know, a bouldering background, I feel like it was is a good transition. Sam into route climbing and especially this area because know the boulders are this or like the route climbing is essentially just like an extension of the bouldering like all the cliffs that are on the side of grandfather like on 221 or above 221 are it's the same rock that's below know like all those boulders like fell off of the cliffs so like just learning how to climb on that specific rock I feel like really helped with the route climbing Ari Grode Did you, I mean, were you mainly just repeating classics or, i mean, what did that look like?

25:01 Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Cause I mean, you've got some, you know, you, you've eventually done some, either some really significant repeats of, of some test pieces or like put up some of your own lines. I mean, I guess talk us through that a little bit. Sam yeah um Yeah, man. So I like, yeah, just kind of work through the classics, you know, projected thing. My first 512 was unwritten law at the dump, you know, that pretty classic fun. Robert Nice. Yeah, yeah. Huge dino, yeah. Sam Yeah, Dino Route. And yeah, man, just kind of worked through the worked up through the classics and the grades through, yeah, sport climbing at at the dump. And then, yeah, trad climbing at Shiprock. shipwrock and took some trips up to the new, which I think is the best cragging on the planet.

25:53 Ari Grode Oh yeah. Sam We haven't been to a lot of, like, that really that many cragging areas, but God, it's so good. Like anytime I go out West and climate, you know, places like the Valley or you know, Tahoe or, you know, tree or wherever, you know, like these classic areas that are, you know, world known. It's like coming back to the new, I'm always just like, man, this is just the best place for rock climbing. Like it's so good. Robert The new is pretty mega. Sam um But yeah, it's so mega dude. Robert It's hard to beat for sure. Sam God, the trad and the sport. um everything yeah so and bouldering yeah um but yeah so Robert Everything.

26:33 Robert Were you, were you climbing more? You climbing when you got the new, like, were you still in that kind of sport climbing phase? I mean, know that was short lived for you, but like, was that mainly sport climbing or were you doing trad when you went up there? Sam yeah i man every time i go to the new i usually do a mix um i feel like i always go there with the attention sport climbing and then end up track climbing Robert Okay. Sam And the, like, I have to like consciously be like, okay, I'm not taking any gear with me right now. Like I'm only going sport climb today. Ari Grode Ha ha ha. Sam Um, because there's so much good sport climbing there. Uh, it's kind of insane. Um, but yeah, whenever I go there, yeah, it's just kind of, I do usually do a little bit of both. Sam Um, and I'll take like a one or two day trip. I haven't been there in a few years, but yeah, i feel like it's usually just like a couple of days I spend up there and kind of poke around and climb stuff that I can do in a session.

27:24 Sam Um, not really, I just really haven't like spent time like projecting there, which I would love to do at some point, like spend several months up there and just like really dig in because there's a lot of harder lines there that are just inspiring. Robert Yeah. Sam that I would love to like put some time into. Robert Absolutely. When, when was your first trip up there? Sam uh, Robert Like, were you still in college or it a little bit afterwards or like kind of how far into your climbing were you when you, Sam Man, I think I went to the new for the first time. when was it? i must have been in college, yeah. Ari Grode Thank you. Sam I think I went with my buddy Chris and Cody, and we went and did some sport climbing. Yeah, so it was before I had tried climbing.

28:07 Robert Okay, nice. Sam Yeah. Robert Left the couch cushions at home for that one. Sam Left the couch, coaches didn't home. Yeah, I just took the rack, and, you know, we were like, I mean, still this point, it's like we're probably, you know, just Gumby's, like, just trying figure it out. Sam And, you know, the bolting at the new, like if you're kind of fresh and sport climbing, the bolting can be like kind of intimidating sometimes, I think, um you know, just like spaced out, ah you know, sometimes the first bolts like kind of off the ground and usually a pretty long run to the anchors, but, Robert Yeah, yeah. Robert Yeah. Sam I love it now. Ari Grode I feel like it. Sam Like, it's fun to me, like the way it's bolted. Just like, I mean, i don't know. Doug Reed is a tall dude, and so all his routes, it's like sometimes you like really have to reach for the clip.

28:47 Robert Oh, yeah. Sam But ah but yeah, i really enjoy it now. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam It's like a little bit more adventurous than and going like somewhere to the red or something like that, where it's like little bit closer. Ari Grode Yeah. I feel like if you come from, if you, if you cut your teeth in North Carolina, the new doesn't feel like all too, you know, Sam Yeah. Ari Grode intimidating because like you said, it's kind of similar. Sam Yeah, it's on par for sure. Ari Grode Yeah. But I can imagine if you came from somewhere else checking out the new, you might be like, Oh, wow. Sam oh yeah. Yeah, like, holy shit. Ari Grode hundred foot route with eight bolts on it. Like, Ooh. Sam Yeah. Yeah, yeah. yeah yeah Ari Grode Um, yeah. Sam to Ari Grode So I wanted to jump in a little bit. I i know you've, you, you do, or you have done, ah you know, a bit of development, both bouldering and, um, and rope climbing.

29:35 Ari Grode Uh, I mean, was that something that kind of just, Started to happen as you kind of progressed, you started to just find some, some open, either open projects or some new areas. Like you want to talk us through a little bit of how you got into maybe, you know, actually developing some areas or or some new routes in some of these areas you climb out a lot. Sam yeah um yeah i think uh it was kind of always something like natural for me is just like going out and like seeing something without chalk on it and you're like oh man i wonder if that's been done like this looks really cool and just that whole process of like going up to a blank piece of rock and like trying to figure it out for me has always just been really fun um And, you know, in this area, since there's not guidebooks, you're always kind of like going on a little bit of adventure.

30:23 Sam Like, you know, you see a boulder from the road that you've never seen before. and it's like, gonna go check that out. or just go on a random hike in the woods and find some rock. and It's, yeah, there's a lot of rock in the area. Sam And, you know, i would say most of it has probably been climbed on or at least seen by somebody. Robert you Sam um But there's definitely still stuff that hasn't been done. or been climbed on at all. um And so it's kind of like, you know, it's not like the great frontier of climbing. It's not going to somewhere like Tahoe where there's just like endless boulders everywhere. Sam But um there is quite a few, there are quite a few areas here that are, you know, yet to be discovered and, you know, haven't been climbed on. And I think a lot of it is just like the way that the wood's set up here. There's a lot of rotos and like thick woods. And so, Sam in order to even find a boulder, like you kind of have to be right on top of it. You know, there's not like really long view, areas where you can just like see everything.

31:28 Sam So you kind of to go hunting for it, which was fun. And yeah, so I guess for me, it was just like kind of a fun way to be in the woods and, you know, find new climbs. And, um, I think as far as like, Sam uh, route development, like, honestly, haven't done a ton of route development. Um, but how I started with that was, uh, I think, you know, Mike Graham and true, they were like, they saw me as this dude who, you know, was stronger than them and who could like, you know, climb stuff if they couldn't. So they like, dude, like you should go do this thing because it's sick. Sam And like, I'm never going to do it kind of thing, you know, like they're, Robert Nice.

32:11 Sam but I think one of the first routes I ever developed was this thing down at the Hemlock Wall, um which is at 221. Ari Grode Okay. but Where's the hemlock wall? That's not an area I'm familiar with. Sam It's like below 221. Ari Grode Okay. Sam Getting to it now, I think it's technically on private property. ah At the time, Mike True lived in the neighborhood of the dude who owned it, and he had permission to go down there, so we were able to like drive down kind of close to the crag. Sam and get down there that way. Now it's like you would have to hike from 221 to get to it. And it's definitely like a bit of a hike, um pretty steep, but I think you could still get, go there. And I think it's, I can't, don't, don't quote me, but I think it's on public land or it's like right on the line, like crag itself.

33:02 Sam um But yeah, so there's, there's a route there that goes up this like really steep overheating pillar. really cool feature but it was always like all the dudes who were going down they were like you know that's like the future zone and you know we haven't messed with that yet but Mike True was like dude I'm gonna like take you off this and we're gonna you know you're gonna bolt it or we're gonna put it up together and yeah you should do it and so he he like got me really stoked and he was stoked on it so i was just like a pretty easy intro into route development and Sam you know, we did it ground up, which was cool. So we're hanging on hooks and drilling bolts and, uh, you know, that whole experience was just like, for me, it was really fun. And just like seeing how everything was done and getting to be, you know, kind of exposed, um, hanging on hooks, drilling bolts, like that that was just a cool experience to me.

34:04 Sam but yeah, so that's like, Ari Grode what does i mean what does that What does that look like going up something so steep? i can't and i mean Everybody says you're hanging in on hooks, but like it's not like it's not like hook placements are all, at least from what I understand, it's not just like they're right in front of you and it's like, okay, I'll just hang on, whatever. Sam yeah oh yeah dude for sure no i definitely like took several like hook whips yeah Ari Grode you know i mean what is i mean Are you ever falling, like ripping some of these hooks out? or like What does that look like? Robert And also, and also just to like a little bit of, I was going to say a little bit of context too, like about like, what was the grade for that? Just like, so people can picture like how blank or not blank this wall was. Sam uh man i i don't know how hard it is honestly it's like it's hard to grade but i think it's probably in like range um Robert Okay.

34:45 Ari Grode Okay. Sam um Robert So it's thinner. Sam It's like, yeah, it's pretty, it was pretty thin for sure. Robert Yep. Sam was just like, you know, it was kind of like one hard boulder problem in the second, in the middle of it, uh, like a steep wall. And then after that, it's maybe like 12 plus to the top. Sam But, um, but yeah, it was, uh, definitely taking some whips on hooks, uh, pulling off choss flakes, you know while hooking. So yeah, it was an an adventure just, uh, going up there and trying to figure it out. But yeah, we placed bolts all the way up. So. Sam you know, if you're whipping, it's onto a pole. Ari Grode yeah yeah Sam It's not like, yeah, I'm just like a endless line of hooks. Um, but yeah. Robert Just 14 hooks just ripping after one after another. Sam Oh my God. Yeah. I've done that before. And that was, that was scary too, but yeah.

35:29 Robert but when When did that happen? Sam Man. So on that, um, the, the brat developed at Hawksville, um, it still a project. Um, yeah, that was, ah yeah, a lot of hooking on that. Um, Sam So I, for that route, I don't know if y'all had seen that at all, or there's some photos out there circulating of it. Ari Grode i've i've seen I've seen that picture. Robert Yep. Ari Grode that who took Who took that photo? Sam Brian Miller, Fixed Line Media. Ari Grode Okay. Oh, man. Sam Yeah. Robert Okay. Ari Grode Fuck. That is such a... Sam Yeah. He takes some bangers, man. Ari Grode That's it that's a banger photo. Sam But yeah. Robert Yeah. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode i've seen I saw that. That was like... I was like, what is this route? That is like absolutely stunning. Sam Oh, I know. Ari Grode um I've never seen it in person.

36:09 Sam Yeah. Yeah. Ari Grode I've never been to the upper Hawksbill wall. ah But yeah. Okay. So that's still a project. Sam Yeah, still project. Yeah, I think there was like some misprint in a AAC journal or something of like saying that I had done it. But no, I have not said that just to clear the air there. Sam um But yeah, so that route, I mean, developing that, it was, I first wrapped it just to see if there was a route there, basically. You because you look at it from the ground, you're like, holy shit, that is a sick feature. This is crack. Sam that kind of runs all the way across the wall, just like really pretty. Um, it's overhung by maybe like 20 degrees. The stone is like really lightly colored, um, is really, really pretty rock. Um, but yeah, so I wrapped down it just to see if it was a thing, you know, and you can't really see it that well because it's overhung. so you can't get into the wall and I didn't want to wrap bolt it. So I just kind of like wrapped down it just to see. And then, Sam went out there with my buddy Cody and he belayed me to you know, I kind of like, I've done this before. This wasn't the first time I'd done this, but I went up it and I wanted to aid it just to see like what it was like, you know, kind of like a fun exercise almost just like to go up the route and just check it out.

37:32 Ari Grode Mm-hmm. Sam um And I think I had assumed maybe there was a little bit more gear than there actually ended up being, but You know, the crack took some gear and ah I can hold back up a little bit. But yeah, so there's a first pitch that is it's an existing 510 two pitch climb. Sam So you climb the first pitch of this 510 and then you traverse left across the ledge to get to the base of where this like thinner crack starts. um And so. Ari Grode Is this is this five ten like on the main Hawksville wall? or Sam No, it's on this upper tier. Ari Grode I've never actually been to Upper Hawksville. so So, okay. So, Upper Tier has some like multi-pitch up there.

38:16 Sam the Ari Grode Okay. Gotcha. Sam yeah so it's kind of like yeah it's this upper tier and it's so like not a lot of people climb in there like i had only hiked there one time with leaf and we just you know went out there and just basically look at the crag and see what it was like because we've never been up there but um you have to like hike to the top of the mountain and then like kind of scramble down this little like kind of cliff thing to get to it. Sam So it's a little bit harder to get to than the rest of the Hawksville zones. Ari Grode Mm-hmm. Sam So I think that's why people don't climb there as much, but the rock's really good up there. um And but yeah, so the or getting to, you know, you so you do that first pitch of that 510, traverse left, and get to the base of where this route starts.

39:04 Sam um And there's just like a one bolt anchor there. So just go into a bolt and then I ended like pulling the rope through. so there's less drag and just drop the rope back down to the blayer and then they play from the ground. Sam Um, but yeah, so i took my buddy Cody out there. I was like, dude, I really need to catch on this. You know, like I want to go check this route out. out He's like, okay, man. And so we go out there and, ah um, I'm like starting up this thing, going aid it. And you know, the crack takes like kind of funky gear for the most part. Sam Uh, it's like, I think, mostly offsets um and i don't think i had offsets at the time so i was like placing some like less than ideal pieces of gear in the crack um and then the crack kind of like it like kind of it like flares out a lot towards like the end of it like the last like 20 feet of it like are really flaring and i couldn't find any Sam head wall which is like, oh man, i could.

40:11 Ari Grode ah oh hold Hold on a sec. Robert i i think we I think we lost that for a second. Ari Grode Hold on a sec. Sam Okay. Ari Grode we Right when you said flaring, we we it cut out for a second. Sam Okay. Ari Grode yeah Sam Let me drink here. Sam My back. Ari Grode Yeah, yeah. It sounds good now. Sam Okay, cool. Yeah, I got a call on my phone. I think maybe that's what did it, but yeah. Robert Okay. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam um But yeah, so the crack was like pretty flaring. um And it was just like, yeah, 20 feet of like flaring crack. I didn't really see any obvious places where I could get gear like aid out the rest of the way. Sam ah But straight above, I was like, you know, obviously some hook placements. If you've ever been Hawksbill, there's like a lot of like in cut edges at like at middle Hawksbill, like on the 12 wall, for instance.

40:59 Robert Mm-hmm. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam So there was a lot of like that sort of feature. Ari Grode yeah Sam And I was like, okay, i know what those are like. They're or a little in cut. I think I can get some hooks in those. um And then I saw a tiny little crack above that. And then eventually like a little bit bigger crack. i was like, okay, i can get some gear eventually. Sam and I'll just have to hook kind of in between these gear placements. um But it ended up being like a lot more hooking and less gear. So i was like, i mean, it's probably like a maybe like 30 foot, Sam section where I really didn't get much decent gear at all. And it was like mostly hooks, like a maybe place, like a really small cam.

41:48 Sam And, but yeah, i was just like mostly hooking up this thing. And, uh, it was terrifying, man, honestly. Uh, like, I don't know, like eight grades really, but like, and I don't know if I would hit the ground from there, but it was definitely like, it was always scary and pretty sketchy. Sam um Ari Grode you didn't You didn't fall off that, did you? Sam And I think, no, I didn't fall you're hitting that. Ari Grode you you You got got to the top? Sam No, definitely not. Ari Grode Okay. Robert Thank God. Ari Grode yeah Sam My aid skills were a little bit better at the time. Robert Thank God. Oh Sam Also, it wasn't like, yeah. But yeah, it was, ah it was heady. And I think Cody was actually more scary than I was. It was like probably like a four hour delay. Robert um my goodness. Sam Yeah, it was heinous. But yeah, yeah, I made it up. And yeah, that was, i don't know, kind of a fun way to do it. Just like go check it out and, I actually did that same thing on um fire in the hole at Shiprock.

42:41 Sam Just kind of like went up it, ate it up it just to see. Robert Okay. Ari Grode Yeah, yeah Sam And um yeah, I don't know. I don't why decided to do that those routes, but it ended up being kind of a fun way to go check the cliff out. Ari Grode yeah. Ari Grode Not that I want to move away from this Hawksbill project too much, but that fire in the hole root has always interested me. like it ah For the listeners, i mean it's there's there's the brooch, which is like ah you go up this face and then you break out on this like overhanging, kind of like Sam Hmm. Ari Grode jug ladder traverse with nothing but air underneath you for like 25, 30 feet. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode It's amazing. And then the first in flight route kind of stays up more. It's more like Verde, slightly overhung vert climbing. Right. And then it kind of traverses above the brooch and you figured out a way to link the two through what looks like an impossible boulder problem, uh, you know, with, with nothing but air underneath you.

43:24 Sam Yep. Sam Yeah. it Ari Grode I mean, like, how'd you get the vision for that? Sam Yeah. It's super airy, man. Really. Yeah. That's awesome. um It had been tried previously by Pat um and Cruz McLean. Ari Grode Okay. Sam I know those two for sure tried it. i don't know if anyone else had tried it, but it was, it was like a ah known project. um Ari Grode Gotcha. Sam And, but yeah, so really, I think it honestly just needed that bolt that's in there. it Cause it was just, Like, I think they were trying to try to climb it fully.

44:10 Sam Um, and it just didn't really like go that way because your handhold, the only handhold you have on the lip of the route is like where you also place gear. Ari Grode Okay. Okay. Sam And even then it's like not very good. so you kind of have to like get around onto the face to place your first piece. And it's like after the crux of the climb. Um, and if you, if you fell off the crux, yeah, you would like probably swing in and hit the wall below the bridge. Ari Grode You would take an absolutely monster whipper if you fell. Sam So that's like why it hadn't been done yet. Ari Grode Yeah, holy shit. Sam So yeah. Ari Grode Okay. Robert Yeah, seems like a good spot for a bolt. Sam So yeah, that bolt helped a lot. Yeah, exactly. Robert how long did How long did that one take in terms of, obviously, bolting would be quick, but like how long were you working on that one? Sam uh, Sam yeah I don't think very long, dude. I think I, uh, so I put that bolt in one day and then I didn't try that day. And I think I did it the next session. So like, it was like a couple of goes, I think, um, Ari Grode but the put those bouldering skills to to good use. What is that?

45:06 Sam Yeah, for sure. Robert Yeah. Ari Grode it's like What is it? V6 or seven boulder problem or something? or Sam I'd say it's probably like a V7, yeah. You kind of do like, yeah, you do some cool moves like coming out into the crack that's like perpendicular to the brooch. Ari Grode seven Sam ah you Do a big cross through move, clip that bolt, and then like do another move out left, and then you have to like do this like wild like ninja kick move where you like kick the wall, like generate some momentum, and then like stab a really low foot. Sam and then do like a rose move and get out on the face of first flight. Ari Grode Wow. Sam And yeah, it's a, it's a pretty, ah yeah, bouldery sequence, like kind of gymnastic, really, really cool route though. ah the I think the true line there though, is if you were to take that and then go out the next roof, like that would be the, the King line, I think there.

45:57 Ari Grode like Like climb up from first in flight instead of outright. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Oh, wow. Sam Yeah. So it's kind of like, I mean that, Ari Grode ah ah Sam You know, the the fire in the hole is a cool, like, variation for sure. um But, yeah, in my mind, it, like, I think it needs to go out that next roof. And I really haven't messed with that yet, but it's something need to – it's on the list of of things to do. Ari Grode All right. Ari Grode Yeah, you got to get Misty Mountain to make a video of at least foot fire in the hole because, man, that's like a picturesque area to shoot on because it's nothing but air for a long ways. Sam long list. Sam Yeah. Yeah, it is, man. Yeah, it's a beautiful, beautiful zone, fun exposure out there for sure. um Ari Grode Yeah. Sam But yeah, i actually, so those videos, those Misty videos, I was working at Misty at the time. And, you know, for me at the time, I was like, you know, just dirtbagging, really like not, I was just like, you port rock climber basically. And they were like, yeah, we'll pay you for like a normal day's work to go out and make a climbing video.

46:55 Sam Like, okay, it's sick. That's like dream job, you know? Robert ah Sam So yeah, that's where all those videos came from. Yeah. Ari Grode Oh, nice. ah Okay. Sam Yeah. Robert that's cool Ari Grode So, so let's, should we, I want to get back to that Hawksbill project. So you, you aided it. Robert yeah yeah Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Um, and then what, what did equipping it look like? Sam who yeah Ari Grode I mean, you said there wasn't much, there was some gear and then there was sections where there was no gear. Uh, so what'd you, did you end up like equipping it? I assume with some bolts, uh, to, to at least in the spots without any good gear. Sam Yeah. Sam Yeah. For sure. So ah there was an old self-drive bolt ah at the very beginning of the route. And I searched around forever to try to figure out who it was, who put that in. I think it was Ryan Beasley, not a hundred percent sure.

47:44 Sam um I actually needed talk with him and see for sure. But, um, yeah, it was just like an abandoned thing, you know, it's obvious that they put that one bolt in or like, Nope. Sam Um, e but yeah, so I replaced that bolt. Um, and then Yeah, and all all the I did all hand drilling too on the route just because it was like you're not allowed technically to have power tools in the gorge or use power tools. Sam So, yeah, hand drilled all the bolts from... Ari Grode how How long does it take to drill hand drill a bolt in that quartzite?

48:25 Sam ah Man, it's like, um I can't... Ari Grode It's got to take forever. Sam I don't know. I don't think it's that long. I also had just like been framing... like houses. And so I was like really, really good on the hammer at the time. Ari Grode I've been training. Robert mans Man's in peak, peak bolting shape right now, dude. Sam Dude. Yeah. Peak hammer form. Definitely. ah But man, I would say like maybe 15 minutes per volt or something of like really like kind of getting after it. Ari Grode Oh, wow, okay. alright Sam Yeah. Robert I mean, that's, you said that doesn't take that long, but that, I mean, we've, we've bolted with a hammer drill before. and It's a lot less than 15 minutes. Sam Yeah. Robert Yeah. Sam Oh, yeah, dude. I mean, yeah, it's like 20 seconds. there's but bit Robert Yeah.

49:06 Sam um But yeah, so yeah, it was like 15 minutes of just like ting, ting, ting, ting. Robert 15 minutes? Wow. Sam Yeah, definitely a workout. And yeah, so yeah, hand bolted all that stuff or hand drilled. And I went up. Mike Grimm belayed me on it. Sam I feel like he also belayed me on fire in the hole when I put that up. He's kind of like the guy who I don't know. He's like the guy who taught me how to do a lot of that stuff. And so it's just cool, like getting to do that with him. Sam um But yeah, so yeah hand drilled a bolt at the beginning of the route and the, or at the beginning of the crack and then all gear through the crack to the end of it.

49:53 Sam And then there are, i think four bolts on the head wall and yep. Ari Grode that's the section that you ended up hooking through. Okay. Sam Yeah, four bolts up there. That's what the crux is as well. And then there's a single bolt anchor because i was hand drilling and I didn't want to put in two. Yeah, Ari Grode Okay. Sam yeah but eventually I might go back and put another one in. Robert Bear. Sam But i don't know, the rock's really good. Yeah. um Ari Grode Yeah. For, for those who haven't seen it, I'll, we'll, we'll put it in the show notes, but this picture of, of, of this project is insane. Just to... Sam Yeah, it's insane, man. It's like, and it's one of those things. It's so hard. It's such a hard route, but it's always just like in the back of my mind. Like, even if I haven't tried it in a while, it's still like in the back of my mind is like an active project that, you know, I need to get done.

50:48 Ari Grode Have you gotten pretty close or what? I mean, how how long you been trying that thing? Sam i would say no, I've not gotten close. I haven't tried it in a couple of years. Ari Grode Okay. Sam You know, I've done a lot of moves, but like maybe like two hung it once or something is like as close as I got. Ari Grode Okay. Ari Grode Do you have any sense of how like hard it is? i mean... Sam Man, think it's probably like in the 14 BC range, I would say, likely. Ari Grode Okay. Robert Wow, that's pretty stout. Sam Yeah, it's pretty stout. It's just like sustained crimpers ah through that head wall to like maybe like a V10 boulder problem, like at the very end. No rest in between. Ari Grode Heartbreak. Sam So it's like, it's hard. And that's, I think that's why I haven't been back out there or spent much time out there is because I know that I need to be like peak form, even to like get on it and have a good session.

51:37 Sam and it's like, yeah, I just haven't felt that way really as far as like being peak, like power endurance, crimp form. Ari Grode Has ah anyone else tried it with you? Sam Um, uh, I think, ah yeah a couple of people have like got on it with me for sure. Ari Grode or Ari Grode Okay. Sam Um, trying to think who's been out there, man. I really don't remember, honestly. think Cody tried it a little bit. And then my friend Amy, she tried it some. um But yeah, I mean, there's always plans, you know, like I feel like every year I talk to people and they're like, you let's go try that thing. Sam I'm like, dude, I'm psyched, you know, let's go out. And it just like, hasn't happened. don't know. There's like so much to do. It's hard to, it's just hard, man. There's just so much, you know, so many projects. And I ended up getting stuck kind of like bouldering just because, Ari Grode Okay.

52:25 Sam I don't know, the past few years I've been working a lot and having the business, you know, it's like definitely a little bit less time to get out and, you know, spend a full day at the crag. Robert Thank you. Sam So bouldering ends up being the obvious option there. um But yeah, mean, it's it's definitely the the route and the thing I want to do the most for sure. Ari Grode okay Yes. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Well, I'm stoked to hear youve you. You're still working on that. Cause I mean, I saw that picture, like actually I've got your Instagram up right now is a 282 weeks ago. So the things, yeah, I wasn't sure. Sam No, yeah. Yeah, it's been a while. Ari Grode I wasn't sure if you were still working on it or anything, but that's cool. Sam Yeah, I mean, like, not actually working on it, but, like, mentally working on it, you know, for sure.

53:05 Ari Grode But, but like, yeah, you didn't, you didn't like move away and it's just abandoned. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode um Sam Yeah, not abandoned. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam I moved closer, actually. I live, like, close to the gorge now. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam So, yeah, that was kind of the back of my head when I bought bought the place I live. Ari Grode Okay. Sam I'm like, dude, and I need to, like, do this thing. Ari Grode Oh, sick. Okay. Sam Yeah. Robert when's ah When's the, when's the peak time for you to get on it? Ari Grode Can I ask? Sam uh spring or fall like it needs to be like kind of perfect conditions i think for me to have a chance at it yeah definitely definitely dude Robert Okay. Yeah. Ari Grode Can I, can I ask about a couple other, uh, projects you were involved in that, that have gone down? Um, there's, there's two that are on my mind that I really want to like, just selfishly learn more about, but I think they'd be sick to talk about, uh, Sam yeah hmm Ari Grode Ishmael, the the Pat Goodman, like i mean when i i remember when I bought the High Country Guidebook that they put out recently, you start seeing you start looking at areas like Moon Rock, Stack Rock, like all these areas that where it seems like mainly developed by Pat Goodman.

54:03 Ari Grode And they're all these like nails hard, 512, 513 RX type of climbs, but the stack rock right off the, the two 21 highway, you know, has that infamous, uh, Ishmael route. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode And I know you're like one of the only people that's repeated it. Um, am I talking about that a little bit? Sam Yeah, dude, for sure. Ari Grode Like what got you, mo what got you motivated for it? And I mean, what that roots actually like and, Sam i mean, man, Pat is just a legend as far as this area and putting up hard, sketchy routes. like It's kind of insane, the amount of stuff that he did in that zone of like, you know, stack rock, moon rocks. Sam um And they're all like true to that same style of, you know, just using whatever gear is available and placing a bolt maybe, but probably not, you know? So it's, a yeah, it's it's really cool what he did there. And i mean, I just really appreciate the style of development that he did.

55:06 Sam you know it's it's really easy i think for folks to come in and say you know this would be an awesome sport crag or you know why and aren't there bolts here and you know i get that for sure because it is like more accessible and more people would climb on it but don't know thinking about the area as a whole and those areas in particular it's almost like it's an extension of the bouldering around the area so yeah know for instance like moon rocks it's right next to all the 221 bouldering, like the main areas of 221. Sam And it's essentially like those routes and that crag are, it's just a big boulder. And so, you know, you're looking at this rock and it's like, you know, instead of following a line of bolts, you're trying to figure out, you know, where the climb goes by looking at the features of the rock.

55:59 Sam And i don't know, there's just something really cool about that to me. of, you know, going bouldering on 221 and then hiking 200 yards to Mood Rocks. And it's like, oh, sick. This is like the same thing that I was just doing, just 60 feet tall, you know? um So, yeah, it's kind of like ah I don't know, it's like a cohesive experience for me going to those crags um and climbing on those routes that are basically just boulders. Sam um But, Yeah, so Ishmael, I got psyched on that. I think after seeing, i mean, one, seeing the route itself.

56:42 Sam is because it's a beautiful line, you know, it's like, goes through these dihedrals on the, uh, towards the bottom, you know, kind of traverse and climb up through a couple of dihedrals. And then there's just like this beautiful splitter crack section, um, with like this awesome, like sloper ball, just sitting in the middle the route. That's like, it's just such a sick grip. Sam It's like this, perfect sloper. it would be like on a, you know, gym climbing wall or something. just like made to climb on. um And yeah, it just, it's a beautiful line, man. So I think I really got inspired by seeing it and then seeing photos of Pat on it.

57:22 Sam um And it was like, know, I gotta go check this thing out. And so, yeah, I mean, projecting that is just like a top rope to the bunch, you know, it's definitely a head point. Sam I'd be extremely impressed if someone went ground up on that. That would just be an insane testament of skill if you were able to go up to that ground up. And I mean, people probably could do it, but it would be insane just because like the gear is tricky. Sam the you know the The sequences are pretty intricate. but But yeah, man. So yeah, Top Rope did a bunch, got the gear dialed.

58:03 Sam And and Ari Grode What's the gear like? is there Is there much? Because it gets like 13CX-ish rating. Sam know Ari Grode So I just can imagine there's not much. Sam Yeah, I think, yeah, like 13 CRX, yeah. And so, yeah there's not much gear, dude. There's like, yeah, really minimal gear on the first. So you climb probably like maybe 20 feet and then you get 0.3 that protects you for like five feet. Sam And then you're like kind of soloing through this like 12 minus section through the dihedrals. to like a pretty good horizontal break uh from there you get this like really specific nut that pat made and i borrowed the nut for the ascent and i think everyone who's done it has also used the same nut like hammered a hex to like fit in this little slot that like i mean it fits in this slot but Robert That is...

59:00 Sam Like, i don't even know if like the gear would hold honestly, cause it's like in kind of this, like, it's almost like a flake. It's like kind of attached, but not like totally attached to the wall. So it's like, it would probably hold a fall, but I would not want to test it. Sam I don't think anyone has tested it. I don't know for sure, but maybe Pat tested it. Ari Grode Thank Sam I don't know. Robert Yeah. you You mentioned you were chatting with Pat about the route quite a bit on that. Sam Um, Robert Like, did you ever ask, Oh, when he handed you that nut, like, is this actually, does anyone know if this works or like, yeah. Sam Man, I didn't bother to ask. I don't know. It's one of those things. Like, hopefully you wouldn't fall on that piece. Like, yeah. But yeah, no, it's not something you want to test really.

59:40 Robert Yeah. Yeah. well Little, little mental piece for sure. Sam Um, a little mental piece. Yeah. It kind of makes you like, you can get it from like this resting stance and it kind of makes the resting stance a little more restful. Cause you're like, okay, i have something that like would probably hold me. Sam um But yeah, and then, so yeah, you get this like resting stands place on nut. And then above that is like a really small cam and kind of like a flaring spot. It's like another one you really don't want to test. Sam um Yeah, like really don't, I never tested that one either. ah But then you do the first crux of the route, which is probably like a v seven um up to that sloper ball.

1:00:23 Ari Grode Okay. Sam So you're doing youre doing that V7 on gear that you really don't want to fall on. um And I don't know if Pat fell there. I imagine i think he think he maybe said he did. I forget, man. like You'll have to talk to him about it. Sam but but But yeah, so you do that hard sequence. Robert Yeah, yeah. Sam And then you get like the first good gear of the route, which is a stopper. And I backed it up with like ah a double zero, like above it. So it wouldn't come out. Cause it's like, it's kind of in a flaring space where you really like any upward pull would definitely pop it out. Sam So yeah get a good nut and then double zero above it. And then red point crux of the route is it's like cool, like Gaston sequence through some small crimps. um And that was the only piece I actually fell on.

1:01:13 Sam So one red point attempt, I fell there. And then I sent on my next go. Sam But yeah. Ari Grode but When you, when you fell off that thing, was there a moment where you were like, everything's going to pull and I'm going to hit the ground or, or, or, or was it kind of just, you were locked in and you fell and like, it was over, you know, like the thing caught you. Robert I'm dead. Sam Yeah, man. Yeah. You know, it's like, Sam yeah, I think at that point, man, I was in a pretty good headspace for that sort of thing. Ari Grode and Sam Like, I had been doing other like trad routes and been just like climbing a lot of trad at the time and falling on gear, really just like feeling comfortable. Sam And so that, that piece in particular, I was like, I felt good about, i was like, okay, this isn't going to come out. Ari Grode Okay.

1:01:56 Sam And I like kind of committed myself to the route as well. was like, I'm going to do this thing. And you know, if I fall here, like it'll be okay. So yeah. Ari Grode Gotcha. Man, that's sick. Robert How long, how long were you, like you said, your head pointed, obviously and dropping on the top rope. Like what was that process in terms of length? Like how long did that whole thing take? Sam Man, it probably took me, I think it took me multiple seasons. Like I think the first season I tried it and top roped it some and didn't like feel close like even really like considering a lead. um And then I think, sorry, I think a couple of years went by and that's like when I was like doing that road trip out West, living in a van climbing on all these areas like, you know, the Valley and J tree and getting used to some of that trad and, you know, doing like a little bit of like, you know, soloing and stuff and J tree. And, um, you know, that, I think that experience really put me in a good headspace and just spending that much time climbing. Like I felt just like really solid. And then coming back from that is when I really started projecting it and like set forth with the intention of just doing it.

1:03:13 Sam And yeah, so it came back and then probably put, I don't know, maybe like six sessions into it and ended up leading it. Sam So yeah, I think I did it on top rope clean once and then I was like ready. Ari Grode ah Sam I think I like knew that I was ready for it. Robert Super cool. Ari Grode How many ascents has that had? Sam Yeah. Ari Grode was that Were you like the second or third? OK. Sam So I got three ascents, I think, kind of in the same like couple weeks of it getting put up. Dave Sherritt, Pat Goodman, and Pat Goodman first, and then Dave Sherritt and Mike Stamm also repeated it. Ari Grode okay Ari Grode okay Sam um And man, if y'all are looking for a local legend that no one knows anything about, Mike Stamm is the dude you want to talk to. e Ari Grode OK.

1:04:02 Sam Man, like, yeah. He is just a savant of whatever he wants to do, like whatever he wants to be good at, he's good at. And, you know, whether it be building tree houses or rock climbing or playing music, like he's, yeah, he's badass. Sam Um, yeah. Ari Grode Sick. Sam And he put up, he's put up several other routes in the area that haven't been repeated and some highball stuff that hasn't been repeated. um, you know, like this V10 axiom that hasn't been repeated. It's like insanely highball and sketchy. Sam um And yeah, yeah. But anyways, yeah, those dudes were all kind of climbing all those routes at the same time, like Luna, um Jade Rabbit at Moon Rocks. Robert i so Ari Grode Right.

1:04:49 Ari Grode Okay. Yeah. Sam Yeah, so they were all like climbing together, I think a lot and just, you know, putting up these gnarly headpoints. Ari Grode I mean, speaking of moon rocks, uh, Rob, I don't know if you had ah another question about that. Robert That's awesome. Go ahead. Robert No, no, go for it. Yeah, that's where I was headed. Ari Grode I was going to say, speaking of Moon Rocks, I mean, the the other thing that I wanted to ask about was, was it were you part of the party? i know you got the second ascent of that the what used to be the Corridor Project. Ari Grode Was it you and a buddy that that did that? Sam Yeah. Ari Grode or um Okay. Sam Yeah. So me and my buddy Daylon went out there. Daylon Gray, who is a crusher that probably not a of people know about, but he's super strong, really good boulder, really good route climber, just like can crimp so hard and doesn't even understand how strong he is.

1:05:39 Sam um But yeah, so him and I went out there. when was this? This was like probably four years ago. three, four years ago. Sam And, uh, you know, the project, it was like longstanding project. Pat made a video about it. Um, you know, yeah, the video is really good. Ari Grode Yeah. There's like a, I can link that video. There's a hidden video of Pat doing that. Sam I mean, it goes through all the, it gives you all the beta on the route. Ari Grode Yeah. Yeah. Sam And so we had that to go off of. Ari Grode And you know, it must be hard because there's bolts in it and Pat's working it. Sam Yeah, exactly. Ari Grode So Sam Yeah. Yeah. You actually put bolts in that one. That would be, yeah. Ari Grode yeah. Sam But, uh, yeah. it's So it's a mixed line. Um, think three volts and then the rest is gear. um But yeah, so we knew about the route ahead of time from that video and from talking with Pat about it. And it was one those things it's like he was like, it was such a important and like meaningful project to him.

1:06:36 Sam like it was hard like to really want to do it. Cause I was like, man, i like want Pat to do this thing. um But he was kind of point at a point in his career he was like kind of like backing off a little bit. Sam And um yeah I talked to him about it, and he was like, dude, you should go do that thing. So um we went out and tried it. Ari Grode you Sam And yeah, I mean, and a we probably put in that first season, i think I put like six sessions, five or six sessions into it. Sam and Got super close. Daylon and I were both trying it. we were both getting really close. And then Daylon ended up doing it, which was sick.

1:07:18 Sam um And yeah, I came back the next year and I think like maybe like second session on it, ended up doing it. um And yeah, man, it's a really awesome route. Like in this corridor, you can see it's like a mirrored image image on the other side of the corridor of the route itself uh so it's just like it's just cool like you can see like how the rock broke apart you know there's like obvious features that like translate from side to side um the yeah that aspect of it's really cool and then um yeah it's just hard man it's like classic 221 bouldering on a rope um yeah Ari Grode Okay, yeah.

1:07:59 Ari Grode is Is that thing, i mean, it gets, you guys gave it 14A, so it's obviously pretty nails, but is it is it like dangerous at all? Because you're, I mean, you're in a corridor, so is there is there like potential to hit the other wall or is it, is it i've I've been in that corridor, but it's hard to imagine what a fall actually would would be like. Sam oh Sam So on the lower part of the route, it's definitely safe. Ari Grode Okay. Okay. Sam You know, there's like one piece of gear, like maybe 10 feet up or something. And it's like, it's pretty moderate getting to the first bolt, maybe like 11, 511 or something to the first bolt. Sam And there really turns on. um And then after that the crux, which is at the third bolt, you kind of do this like traversing bit where you like grab an undercling and step on this like sloping ledge and go right.

1:08:47 Sam And I think if you fell there, you could maybe hit the slab. um That's kind of the only spot that you could hit the slab. Ari Grode yeah Okay, okay. Sam um Ari Grode Gotcha. Sam Yeah. Or like placing that next piece even, but it's like, it backs way off there. It's like post-crux and you're kind of like, if you make it there, you're probably not going to fall. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Cool. Sam It's a little little, little sketchy, not very sketchy though. Ari Grode Yeah, i remember seeing... Ari Grode I remember seeing that video of Pat. That's a pretty well done video. They get like close-ups of all those holds, and they just look fucking atrocious. Sam Oh yeah. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam Oh yeah, dude. Ari Grode ah Sam like What does he call it? Like the quarter hole? It's like the negative of a quarter. And yeah, that hole's nasty.

1:09:27 Robert Oh my gosh. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I don't know if that thing's getting any more love since you guys did it, but it'd be cool. Sam yeah I think some folks have tried it. Ari Grode and Okay, cool. Sam Yeah. Yeah, some folks have tried it. um I don't know how much or like it really people have gotten like super stoked on it. But yeah, I know it's been tried some. Ari Grode Nice. Robert Super cool. Ari Grode Um, Robert I know you also mentioned that another one that you kind of contributed was but pyramid scheme. You want to walk us through that one as well? Sam Oh, yeah. Robert What was what was that whole process like? Sam Oh man, so that thing, ah God, it was just like sitting right next to like some of the most classic boulders on 221 that people climb that all the time. Like it's right below Mic Space, which is like this classic well-known V8.

1:10:18 Sam um And yeah, it's just like right there, kind of in the main zone. And I walked down there one time and looked it, I was like, this is sick and needs to get done. And it's, don't know y'all have bouldered on like the iceberg boulder, Sam and Robert No, I haven't. Sam the classic like V5, like it's like, so it's right below ship rock actually. Ari Grode The only. Sam Yeah. Robert Okay. Ari Grode okay Sam yeah So you can like hike from ship rock to it. It's like directly down the hill. So it's that same sort of stone. It's like really hard, um really hard rock with like the like quartz features in it. Sam So it's just like a really pretty face with um kind of like a perfect set of holds and Yeah, man, just like saw it and was like, this needs to get done and asked around. And I talked to Mike Stam about it. And he was like, oh, yeah, that thing. you know like I think we tried it, but it's never been done.

1:11:12 Sam and um Ari Grode Is that a boulder or a root? Sam it's a boulder problem. Yeah, so it's a boulder problem. And it's just like, um don't know, it's just cool to do that. classic, like right in the main area, 221. Kind of surprising that it hadn't been done before. Sam And so, yeah, it was just like a fun one to go out and open up for people. Robert Nice. Sam And now it's, you know. Ari Grode Is there any like footage or anything of that that we could share? Sam Yeah, there's one. There's definitely footage of people climbing it. I think I got one on my Instagram, me doing First Ascent. Ari Grode ah Okay, okay. That was sick. Sam Yeah. And but yeah, it's been done quite a few times now. um And just like.

1:11:53 Ari Grode Okay, I just pulled it up. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Yeah, that's a beautiful face. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Holy shit. Sam Yeah, it's beautiful, man. It's like the way it's set up with like those slashes and quartz. It's just like really cool. Ari Grode It looks like tiger stripes almost. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Oh, sick. Speaking of hard bouldering, like you you recently did one of the, was it third or fourth ascent of Bonesaw? Sam Yeah, man. did Bonesaw recently. i don't know how many a sense it's gotten. um Ari Grode that was ah That's a Taylor McNeil boulder, right? Sam Honestly. Yep. Ari Grode and In Linville. Sam Taylor and Neil Boulder. Yeah, man. yeah Ari Grode is that Is that still the hardest boulder in NC? Sam No, no. So there's there's several now that are harder. Ari Grode Okay, okay.

1:12:34 Sam um Yeah. Ari Grode Oh, really? I didn't realize that. Okay. but Sam Yeah, man. Taylor's been putting up some hard stuff. Also Elijah Kaiser, um dude who's from Boone, he's put up some hard stuff too. He recently did this like B15 the Monster Boulder. forget what he called it, but it is, i mean, it's sick and really hard looking. Sam Um, so he did that. Taylor did a V15 as well. Apparatus. Uh, it's like, um, it's like really unique, uh, like wave feature that, I mean, it's pretty stunning. Sam Um, it's just like kind of just one singular feature of slopers and pinches. Um, so yeah, there, there's several hard lines and I think even in, Sam Some stuff around Moore's Wall got put up recently. That's like v fifteen um Yeah, there's, yeah, man, the past few years have been quite a few hard lines going up, which, i mean, yeah.

1:13:31 Ari Grode Oh, really? Okay. Ari Grode Oh, that's good but's cool to see. I mean, yeah. NC's stacked with good, especially the boon area. Holy shit. Sam Oh, yeah. Ari Grode I i followed a... um I think it's Matt Nunes on Instagram. Sam Oh, yeah, he crushes. Ari Grode And just like over and like, i was like, where are all these problems that I've never heard of that are just like, you know, V13, V11, just like, there's many out of that. Sam Yeah. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode Yeah. Yeah. there's so many out of that Sam So many. Yeah. Ari Grode and that Sam don't know how many V14s there are now in Boone, but probably at least like 10 in that range. Ari Grode yeah Sam So yeah, there's some strong dudes, man. Robert I Sam I feel like per capita Boone has like a really like solid climber base. People climbing like upper grades.

1:14:18 Robert i mean, it makes sense with the concentration, you know, like you said, even, even some of the rope routes just feel like longer extensions of the boulder. Sam Yeah. Yeah. Robert And so it's like, that kind of makes sense. Sam Yeah, Robert like, this is the style lock in, you know? Sam yeah yeah, yeah, totally. Ari Grode And such an it's such an underground scene, too. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode like it's cool It's been really fun to explore this. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode because it's i mean i Rob and I lived in North Carolina for ah years. and and it's just like Sam Okay. Ari Grode i mean Obviously, we' we'd climb out at 221. Sam know Ari Grode i didn't do much bouldering out there, mainly Ship Rock, all the crags on 221 and stuff, Linville. Yeah. Yeah. Robert Sunken treasure special spot in my heart. Ari Grode there' yeah yeah Sam Sunken Treasury, yeah, that's a great one, man.

1:14:59 Robert Yeah. Ari Grode Yeah. Sam Yeah. Ari Grode But like, it's cool to explore that area. Cause there's really not a lot of, I mean, there's so many hard climbs out there and I feel like it, it doesn't get talked about as much, uh, or at least a scene is the scene is very like underground. Sam It doesn't, man. Yeah, it It is. Ari Grode Like, you know, if you're in the know, if you, if you know the people like, uh, so yeah. Sam Yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you know, you know, or you got to talk to somebody about it. There's not a lot of information out there. Robert Right. Sam But yeah, there is, there's a lot of hard stuff and, uh, you know, the seasons are, can be interesting and tricky sometimes too, you know, to, to really get the weather window you need in order to do something. Sam um but that being said, I mean, there's kind of like this area almost has four season climbing, you know, like the winter time's good spring and fall are awesome summertime. Occasionally like it's ship rock, you'll get days where you need a jacket.

1:15:50 Sam So it's, uh, Yeah, it's it's pretty awesome in that regard for sure. But yeah, you know, you can also go through like a month straight of rain. So yeah, it can be tough. Ari Grode Yeah. Robert Yeah, for sure. Sam um Yeah. Robert Yeah. You mentioned, um, i mean, I think that might be an interesting, like you mentioned, obviously you had that, that stint where you were living in the van going West and like checking all these other places for you on that. Sam hmm. Robert Like, it it seems like it wasn't enough of an appeal to like keep you away from Boone, but what were some of the spots where, when you went away that they stood out and then ah ultimately like, why'd you end up choosing to go back to Boone and posting up there? Sam um Man, yeah there's god yeah, there's so much climbing out west and so much good climbing, you know, like the valley, mean, all time, like world-class, big wall stuff there. ah And, I mean, the cragging, the bouldering, ah you know, going up to Wollumine and climbing, know, multi-pitch there were bouldering up there.

1:16:56 Sam There's just like – so much in that California region that, uh, is just, I mean, it's so good, you know, Tahoe as well, where you can go out and find new boulders every day if you wanted. Sam um and the rock quality is really good. um and I mean, yeah, it's just like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. There's so much out there that's, it's like really good and fun. And, uh, I don't know, man, I don't honestly, like, Sam I think there's a few things that but drew me back here. ah i mean, one being like the homies I have here, know, I have a bunch of good buddies and, you know, it's just like nice seeing them and hanging out and, um and also the climbing, you know, like the rock here to me is like some of the best and most interesting that I've climbed on and diverse as well. Robert Yeah.

1:17:54 Sam ah Like within this area, you just like the small radius of the high country of North Carolina, there's a lot of different styles of climbing. Robert For sure. Sam Um, and i don't know, it's just interesting. And it always feels like you're going on a little adventure to you know, if you're going out like hunting for vulvas or going to a new zone, it's just like these little like micro adventures you go on every day. Sam so ah Yeah, man. I don't know. There's like, and something just like special about the area, you know, like I love being out West and I love traveling out there and and visiting.

1:18:35 Sam Um, but something about like the greenness and like how ah alive these mountains feel is like special to me. Um, and yeah, I don't know. I just like, don't know. I just really like it here. Sam And, um, yeah, throughout the seasons, you know, like now I, uh, The past, like, three or four years, I've been taking, like, six months off of climbing and riding my mountain bike in the summer. Sam And, you know, that's a fun thing, too. You know, it's, like, the mountain biking here is, like, kind of world class as well. Like, really, really good riding. Sam And, yeah, so there's just a lot here, a lot to do. The summer times are awesome, like, going to the river, hanging out.

1:19:23 Sam And, yeah, I don't know. It's like, I feel like I can almost live anywhere and enjoy it, but something about this area is like, just kept bringing me back. Robert I don't know, man. that That feels like a really good spot to wrap up. I mean, I... With having lived in North Carolina, I can certainly relate to that. Like it is like a very, uh, there's something special about those mountains that often gets overlooked. Robert So I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there. Sam Yeah. Yeah. Ari Grode Hell yeah. Yeah, man. This has been super fun to dive into. Sam Yeah, man. Robert Yeah, this is great. Ari Grode the The rhododendrons, dive deep into the rotos of ah the high country area because, man, there's there's so much ah there's so much good stuff hidden in there, both from a history standpoint and ah and a you know quality root standpoint. Robert Yeah. Sam if Robert Yeah.

1:20:03 Sam Love him and hate him, dude, for sure. Robert Yeah. Sam you know, God. Ari Grode So, yeah, I appreciate you taking everybody through this. Sam Cool, man. Sam Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Stoked you guys wanted to chat. and Yeah. It's good getting to talk to y'all. Robert Yeah, man, that was great. Ari Grode Yeah. and anything Anything else you want to shout out, I guess, at the end here? Sam Oh, God. i don't know, man. i mean, ah feel like a little bit of an imposter being on the podcast, you know? Ari Grode I know we hit. Sam It's just like, I feel like there's so many, like, more qualified individuals, but ah but I appreciate the shout, and yeah, good getting to talk. Robert that's That's crazy. Ari Grode No way. Ari Grode No way. Yeah.

1:20:47 Ari Grode Sick. Yeah. Robert No, think you've definitely earned a spot on this podcast to say the least. Ari Grode Yeah. Robert But yeah, we're just glad you're up for it. Sam Oh, man. Robert I'll have to ah to thank Anna Lee for putting us in contact. Sam Heck, yeah. Robert But yeah, that was great. Sam Oh yeah, Anna Lee, man. Yeah, haven't talked to her in a long time, but yeah, it's a cool connection. Robert yeah Robert Yeah, yeah. I've been, I'm working on this climbing film with Rab. So like I was just chatting with her and it just came up that ah i lived in North Carolina. Sam Okay. Robert She's like, oh, was in Boone. was like, oh, that's cool. She's like, yeah, I used to climb my mom. oh And then like your name came up. i was like oh, we're like trying to get him on the pod. She's like, yeah, I'll ask around. like, great. Sam Heck yeah. Robert ah But yeah, she's she's super cool. Sam Cool, man. Robert She's super cool. Yeah. Sam Hell yeah. Robert Yeah.