Ground Up 19: Level Up Your Trad Climbing with Dana Taylor

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Ari Grode
Well, Dana, appreciate you joining us. Um, I think this is going to be a fun interview and, and I think we could all agree that, uh, you know, the topic of today's conversation, you know, trad is rad is, uh, I, I, I certainly think I'm not, I'm not, I wouldn't call myself a full trad climber or anything, but it's my favorite style of, of climbing when I, you know, decide to get the cojones to go for it.

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Dana
Okay.

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Dana
sure

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Ari Grode
Um, but yeah, uh,

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Ari Grode
You know, i know you, you have quite a bit of experience as a trad climber, but it it might be interesting to kick things off with just a little bit about, about yourself, about your background. Um, you know, how you got into the sport of climbing, what your kind of experience is there.

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Dana
Yeah, totally. um Yeah, I'm so excited to just like share my stoke for trad climbing. And I think, you know, if you told me like when I had first started climbing that I would be on a podcast talking about how ah how awesome trad climbing is and like how to get more people stoked on it, I probably would have called you a liar because um I was like really against it when I first started climbing and like my journey to kind of ah the dark side. um I guess like surprised even me but at this point there's there's really no going back um

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Ari Grode
Yeah.

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Dana
But yeah, I started climbing in a gym. um I am originally from Chicago. And so um a friend just invited me to climb at the gym. And then on that day, one of her friends invited me to go outside with them in like four months.

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Dana
He was like a teacher. And so he had planned his outdoor trips like very far in advance. And he was like, want to go on this outdoor trip with me? And, you know, my first time ever climbing in a gym. And I was just like instantly, yes. Like there was like from the first time I climbed, there was like no sense of like,

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Dana
do I like this? Do I not like this? I was just instantly like, this is, this is what I do now. um And so when I met for a trip to the Red River Gorge, um and yeah, I mean, I just like my mind was blown. Like, I just didn't know, like, I wasn't, I didn't grow up in like an outdoors family. like You know, I found climbing in grad school and i just like this whole world opened up before me and I didn't even really know what I had gotten myself into, but I just knew that it connected with like my favorite parts of myself. And I felt that like even very early on.

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Dana
um So all of my first outdoor.

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Ari Grode
You said, no, I didn't mean to interrupt.

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Dana
Sorry, go ahead.

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Ari Grode
you You said that you got into, you you you went to the gym first when you were in grad school.

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Robert
Thank you.

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Ari Grode
So you're a little, little bit older. Not like you didn't grow up as a kid climbing.

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Dana
hmm. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Ari Grode
like Yeah. Okay.

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Dana
Yeah, I found it later in life. I grew up like horseback riding. So I wasn't a gymnast. um I did have like, I mean, horses is like a pretty like dirty sport for independent people. And so like, I think there's like, some some parallels there.

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Dana
But no, I did not start climbing until I was like 24. um So yeah, my first like couple years climbing, I was like a gym climber in Chicago and driving down to the red as often as possible. And If you're in Chicago, you know that that is a seven hour drive and you know that you do it as often as you can every weekend. And it's just part of the experience. And I never thought and anything like it was just, that's what we did.

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Dana
Um, but those first outdoor experiences, the red, like I learned how to fall. Like I like learned how to get really stoked. And, um, I just like for a long time, didn't even look outside of the red for climbing.

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Dana
Um,

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Robert
Thank

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Dana
Shrad climbing was like not on my radar. Like but as a new climber, I would always say that it felt like it looked like a more expensive, more dangerous way to do the same thing. um And I will eat my words now because I know that that's really it's more than meets the eye. But at the same like in the beginning, it's like, what do you mean? I have to like have a harness full of all these different sized things and I have to figure out which size while I'm actually climbing. And like it just sounded so insane.

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Dana
Um, and also in Chicago, like our closest trad climbing is devil's lake, which, um, has a reputation for being really slick and really scary. And there's, you know, been accidents there that the community in Chicago, like really, it was like very much a part of our culture.

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Dana
Um, and, and I just wanted nothing.

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Robert
haven't.

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Dana
I just didn't see a reason why i would need to do it.

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Robert
Mm-mm.

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Dana
Like, I just was like, that's no. And so what really changed for me was, um my The experience of my first multi-pitch climb.

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Dana
ah My climbing partner at the time had heard of this 18-pitch bolted route in Mazama, um Washington. Have you guys heard of Flyboys in Mazama?

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Robert
i haven't

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Ari Grode
Mozama?

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Dana
Mazama, Washington.

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Ari Grode
No, i never heard of it.

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Dana
Yeah, so it's an 18-pitch bolted route. It's so many bolts on this route. like It's like gym bolted. like It's like but all bolted anchors, like, And so we saw this and we we're like, we have to do it. Like we literally, neither of us had ever climbed to more than one pitch.

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Dana
um And we just like booked a plane ticket and like taught ourselves multi-pitch transitions in the secret corner of a gym and like flew to Mazama. And I don't recommend this approach. Like it was like literally insane. We gave ourselves like a one day weather window to like, you know, go to a new place and like find this approach. And um anyways, it worked. We didn't, we didn't die. so,

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Dana
that experience like really changed what I saw as possible in climbing.

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Ari Grode
Thank you.

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Dana
um It was a really long day. um i like had to learn about approaches. Like it took us like four hours to find the climb. It's like a 20 minute approach. Like it was just like every like Gumby mistake was like calmly made in this and this day.

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Dana
um But you know, it was like a 10 hour day outside like going up in like vertical space and I'd never had that experience before. And yeah, I just felt so like alive is like really the only way that I can put it.

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Dana
ah And when I came back to the gym after that experience, like it was like, this is not it, you know, like indoor climbing, like had a different flavor after having this like big experience and this is like 1800 foot long route.

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Dana
um And like the, I worked,

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Ari Grode
So, so didn't mean to interrupt here, but, uh, like, okay.

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Dana
Go ahead. Yeah.

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Ari Grode
So you're, you're making all these trips to the red. I mean, what, what kind give us a ah reference of the time period here? I mean, is this, you're spending like years here at the red before you're, you know, you go out to, uh, you just say it was bazum Mazuma Mazama.

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Dana
Mazama.

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Robert
Okay.

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Ari Grode
Okay. Yeah.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Ari Grode
Never heard of that spot. Okay. was Was it quite a long period of time there or, or was this something you did kind of right away?

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Dana
Yeah, it's barely a tone.

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Ari Grode
Like, you know, kind of expanding the type of climbing you're doing very quickly.

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Dana
Yeah, no, so it was probably like six years of just trips to the red. ah Like six years of like, yeah, like projecting in the red, like the red's huge.

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Ari Grode
Okay. Okay.

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Dana
Like you can climb there for a lifetime and never get bored. And so it really had everything that I needed for a long time. ah

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Ari Grode
Okay. okay Well, maybe, um, can we talk a little bit, I mean, Always love to, Rob and I have climbed at the red before, so maybe we can chat just real quick about the Red River Gorge experience.

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Dana
Yeah, I would love to.

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Ari Grode
I mean, is it you know you're you're you're mainly sport climbing, I'm assuming, even though the red does have like a pretty big trad climbing scene, but I feel like it's, like you said, it's the dark arts.

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Ari Grode
I feel like a lot of people there, you know,

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Robert
It's not people typically go to the red for either. You know, you got, you got steep buggy, just fun jug bashing routes on the mind.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
Typically when you're going to the red.

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Dana
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, now I really want to go back as a trad climber, but at the time it was like, no, like you don't go there. um But yeah, it was just like, I learned how to project there, you know, like I found like the first routes that inspired me, like the first route that I was obsessed with was air Ride Equipped, which is 11, think it's still 11A, but it was like my first project, you know, and like,

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Robert
Nice.

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Dana
I remember like wanting to do that route so bad, but like, I just like kept saying take, you know? And then like, finally someone was like, Hey, like if you want to send the route, like stop saying take and try something different. You know, like I would be like, I would like stop myself before I ever got started. And mean know i'd like, Oh my God, it's my project. It's so cool. That's my project, you know? But I like, wasn't actively trying to learn about it. I was just kind of like killing time basically. But yeah, as soon as I like flipped the switch and like sent it, it was like, Oh, like,

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Dana
I can become better at climbing. Like I can like see, so like climb something that feels really hard and then figure out what it takes to make it feel possible. Maybe not easy, but possible.

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Dana
um Yeah. So air ride, Banshee, another great route. Yeah.

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Robert
Nice.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
ah Outside of like being willing to take the whip as opposed to saying take what, what did learning how to project on air and equip look like?

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Dana
yeah

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Robert
Like what was sort of, obviously you kind of had a mental shift. Was there any other shift that kind of went down? Did you start training a little bit more or was it good to give it a go?

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Dana
yeah so Yeah, so Banshee is probably a better example of that because Air Ride was really just like I needed to learn to try. um That was like my first ever projecting lesson.

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Dana
And then I got on Banshee and it's a much longer route, um super classic. But that route, i knew I wasn't strong enough. And so I remember I tried it in the spring and I was like, this is just pump.

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Dana
I'm really pumped and I don't want to be really pumped when I get to the crux. And I didn't have a coach or anything. And I like was very new to training. And so i was like, I need to not get pumped. And so I went back to my gym and did so much arc training, which like at a basic level is kind of just climbing in circles for a long time. And there's good ways and bad ways to do it. But at this time in my life, that's all I was doing was just climbing in circles for like ah just a stupid amount of time um but then I went back to the red in the fall and sent it like second go you know like it really like that was just like that was an easy problem to solve like the problem was I'm getting pumped how do I train in a way that I don't get pumped and then I did that for a long time because the red's really hot in the summer went back in the fall and then I felt like a different person so like that was kind of like the first time that the light twitch fight kind of flipped for me which is like

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Dana
if I am up against a limit, that limit can move. Like I can like learn to change that limit, get rid of that limit, move past that limit.

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Robert
Thank you.

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Ari Grode
So there there was a bit of a maybe I'll say a like a light bulb moment, like, oh, you can you can train for this type of activity and and it's going to pay dividends.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Dana
It was, it was really satisfying. Yeah. it was really satisfying. I think also in that climb, I always remember, had i had like I remember, so there's two Waco rests on that climb, which is really cool. And the second one is after the crux, the technical crux on the route. So you pull the technical crux, you climb into this Waco and then you've got like 20 feet of Juggie climbing to the chains.

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Dana
And I remember being so scared that I wasn't going to send, like so scared that I would like pull that crux and not send. and that I would have to like go, you know, tell my friends that knew I was working on this climb that I didn't send. And then I would have to like go tell the story and make all these excuses of why i didn't send. Like, I'm literally thinking of this, like while I'm on the route, you know, like how am I going to explain to my friends that I failed?

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Dana
And then I had this like another like light bulb switch in my head that was like, why are you telling yourself all these negative things? Like, don't you believe that you're strong? Like, don't you believe, like asking myself, like, don't you believe that you're capable of doing this? And like, hey, if you know you're strong,

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Dana
write that story now. Like you can write that story now. Like you don't have to like worry about the story that other people are writing for you. And it was just this really powerful moment of like, I don't really care what people think about me if I send or don't send this. Like I know I'm strong and I want to be strong. And so I'm going to climb this as the person that I know I am.

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Dana
And I sent, and that was really cool. ah Very, very satisfying. So that was like, yeah, my first like really satisfying project.

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Ari Grode
Okay. um And so, again, along the the timeline of all this, this is relatively still relatively early in kind of those, you said you spent about six years making that trek to the Red River Gorge.

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Dana
Yeah. Yeah, so that was probably, like, I don't know, the fourth or fifth year? So, um yeah, somewhere in, like, my later later red River Gorge era.

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Robert
Cool.

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Ari Grode
Okay, okay.

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Robert
And and then you also mentioned Devils. Like, the g did you go to that area at all at this point? Or was it like, no, we're staying away from that. We've heard some stories.

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Dana
Yeah, so Devil's, like...

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Robert
We're out.

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Dana
Yeah, Devil's Lake, I have more respect for it now than I did when I lived in Chicago. But um at the time, i mean, it's it's top rope and it's trad climbing. Like, there's no bolted routes there. And so, like, we would go in top rope. But um the style the stylistic differences between the Red and Devil's Lake are, like, gargantuan. Like, Devil's Lake is just a very, very different style of climbing.

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Dana
um And it just didn't light me up as much as the Red. And so, like, I always was just like, yeah, I'd rather... drive seven hours and like explore Devil's Lake, which, you know, if it were me now, I would not feel that way. But at the time it was just like, I'll go top rope here sometimes. And, and that was kind of, kind of it for me up there.

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Robert
Yeah, that's cool. um So obviously then we're putting in some time at the red and then we're here now, right? So like a little bit more in between once you kind of had, as you mentioned, you could climb a lifetime at the red, so many things, the project, all of that, right?

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Robert
But eventually maybe that seven hour drives not looking as good or you know what, like maybe you moved, I don't know, but where did, where did things progress once like the red was sort of like this, like that's where I cut my teeth kind of chapter that was closed.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
Like, what What kind of came next as far as you as a climber?

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Dana
Yeah. yeah So I moved to California um because like, I don't know, being in Chicago during COVID, I was like, I need to live close to nature. Like the seven hour drive is not going to be my whole life.

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Dana
um And so I moved to California. I remember like asking someone from California, like, if I live in San Francisco, what can I rock climb within seven hours? And they were like, dude, like, don't even ask us that question.

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Ari Grode
you

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Dana
Like you can climb like most of the state within seven hours. It's like six sticker different ecosystems and eight different types of rock. Like, what do you, you know? So anyways, my, I was like frothing for like all of the climbing in California, um, moved out here and was in San Francisco first and kind of really saw like a starker divide between

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Robert
Yeah.

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Dana
gym culture and outdoor culture um because california has rock and weather that makes it possible to climb outside year round and so i had never really met people that were able to climb outside more than they could climb inside but i kind of started to see that california had culture of outdoor climbing that was something that i'd never really gotten to experience before um And I was really curious about that.

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Dana
i started to kind of get curious about trad climbing. um i you know, I mostly like, I didn't want to write it off completely. Like I had very, so I had strong feelings that it was really dangerous.

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Dana
um And I was really scared because I, you know, like my life. um And i go ahead.

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Ari Grode
to and Can I ask, was there any particular reason that that was the viewpoint?

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Dana
Yeah.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Ari Grode
Just through the who the devil's lake kind of more, I guess.

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Dana
Yeah, yeah, yeah. so um when I was climbing in Chicago, um there was a girl in our community who was a little bit younger than me who actually passed away in a climbing accident in Devil's Lake.

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Dana
And her name was Savannah. um I didn't know her um but there is like a certain type of grief for ah person that I'll never get to know, but who very clearly had such a positive impact on the community of people that I was really close with.

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Dana
And so like knowing that and like knowing, like learning about who she was and like that she was someone that I certainly would have been friends with. Like it kind of just like put into my conscious, just the gravity of, of trad climbing. And I know now that it can be done safely. And of course, like we as trad climbers know that it can be done safely, but I will never,

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Dana
not be honest with myself about the, what can happen and like why we need to be safe and like understand our gear. And like, yeah, I just like, I'm not the person that's like, let's just be insane and like whip all the time and like, just figure out what's going to happen. Like there's real risk involved in trad climbing. And so like, you know, knowing that that happened, it really kind of like made me consider very carefully how I went about learning trad climbing.

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Robert
Makes sense. How, how old were you at the time when Savannah had that?

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Dana
Um, good question.

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Robert
Do you know, or like when you first heard, like roughly when you first heard of it and all of that.

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Dana
Yeah, I don't know, maybe 27-ish?

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Robert
Okay. So this is still like post, like kind of end of grad school era just afterwards.

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Dana
Yeah, yeah, like middle of my Chicago climbing chapter.

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Robert
Nice.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Ari Grode
Yeah, it can really change your perspective when you know either somebody you know, climbing is all fun and games until you know something goes kind of wrong and you're like, oh shit, there is some like real consequence that could happen like that ah you know when when either you know gear rips or rock breaks whatever, like just stuff can go wrong.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Ari Grode
And it's like, oh, we are and doing kind of a low risk but potentially serious consequence activity.

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Robert
Yeah, we just we have some friends that are on a trip right now in Red Rocks that actually just told us about a pretty big rock break story that they encountered.

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Dana
Yeah. And then it's like, go ahead.

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Robert
So it's one of those things that's kind of easy to forget about because we're always having such a good time outside and like kind of always in this euphoric state of just like, oh, that was amazing.

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Robert
That was mega. That was sick. But yeah, there are some very real consequences in tri climbing and, mean, sport climbing, any any form of climbing, obviously.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
So yeah, it's kind of one of those things where it just takes one little incident to kind of put things into perspective or sort of change perspective a bit. So I can imagine, especially as you're like just getting into the the world of climbing, you hear about a story like that.

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Robert
And obviously it can be incredibly and informative or formative in terms of like how you view every aspect of tri climbing.

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Dana
yeah Yeah, totally. And and i I did kind of like stop myself short of writing it off completely forever. And, um you know, because like I actually said that I would never climb multi-pitch either.

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Dana
Like I also thought that that was just insanely dangerous. And, you know, then I did this like 18 pitch thing in Mazama and I was like, whoa, like that's an insanely cool experience that I just had.

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Ari Grode
Oh.

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Dana
And I am not going to write off trad climbing because there might be a time in my life when I want to do something that I have to, that trad climbing can take. but I want to go somewhere where only trad climbing can take me.

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Dana
And so i was like, I'm not going to learn it just to learn it. i want to be inspired. And if I get to that level of inspiration, then then I'll learn it. And um I guess like two things happened there. One was I learned that Wadi Rum exists.

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Dana
um And like, it just looked insane, you know, and like, it's all trad climbing. And so it was like, whoa, like what if I could go there? Like that would be insane.

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Dana
So I had kind of held that in the back of my mind. um And also, i ah this was when Emily Harrington was working on sending Golden Gate in a day. And I remember just the way that she would talk about her goals and her process.

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Ari Grode
so Okay.

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Dana
And I just felt i felt so inspired. And I was like, that is so badass. Like to set your sights on something that feels impossible and chip away on what it takes to get there. And I was like, that's it. I'm going to free climb El Cap.

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Dana
Like, full on. was like, well, you know, let's, let's, let's figure out how to try and climb in Yosemite. And I don't really have that goal anymore. But it did kind of serve as like a guiding light for like kicking my butt into figuring out how to learn trad climbing.

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Ari Grode
So what did the...

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Robert
I'm curious. So like the the Mazama part of it, right? Like that sounds like that was like a very big switch. But like what what was the reason you were willing to do that first multi-pitch? Like what? Like if you had kind of written it off, like what was all of a sudden? Oh, you know what? i well I will check this out.

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Robert
It sounds pretty cool. Like what was ah what it kind of allowed you to do that?

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Dana
Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I mean, I, first of all, my climbing partner had suggested it, um, shout out to Clint. Uh, you know, he had heard of it and, and wanted someone to do it with. And I was like, you're insane. Like I actually, this is funny.

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Dana
I looked at him me i said, we only have one rope. How can we do a multi-pitch climb?

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Ari Grode
Okay.

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Dana
just, I just had no idea.

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Robert
I mean, it's it's an important question.

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Dana
like i just i just had no idea

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Robert
It's important question, right? Yeah.

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Dana
It wasn't even a good question. It was just I looked at him. It was like, Clint, we only have one rope. We can't possibly do this. And he was like, that's not how it works. I was like, clearly, we know nothing. Anyway, so I was like, dude, a hard no. Absolutely not. And then he was just so inspired by it. And so i look I let myself look it up on Mountain Project. And I just...

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Dana
I saw, I remember like the specific image that like really like stuck in my head. It was like this woman on, I don't know, like pitch pitch seven or something. And you can see just like the smallness of everything behind her. And she's like up high. And and I, for the first time, like saw myself as like possibly being able to be that person.

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Dana
And I was like, I want to know what that feels like. Like it just like, it made my hand sweaty just thinking about it. And I was like, I want to, I want to put my, I want to know what that feels like. Like, I want to know what it feels like to climb 1800 feet. And I just like had this like insatiable curiosity to like need to get to that feeling. and then there's also an amount like, hey, if she can do it, so can I, you know, like what's stopping me from being that person. And so, um yeah, so we just, you know, two pretty new climbers.

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Dana
We had like climbed a lot in the red, but like we had never climbed more than one pitch together, which was an insane proposition. And I cannot overstate enough. ah You should prepare more than we did.

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Ari Grode
Yeah. So, okay. So you're, you're, you're in the California scene, obviously.

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Ari Grode
Okay.

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Robert
Well, wait a minute.

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Robert
Wait minute. Ari, I'm kind of curious.

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Ari Grode
Okay.

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Robert
I'm kind of curious about this 18 pitch, 1800 foot. Like you tell us a little more about like what that day went like it would with, as you put it little is to no preparation for multi-picks, multi-pitch logistics, right?

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Ari Grode
Okay.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
Like, did it go seemingly?

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Dana
Yes.

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Robert
Like, was it like a, whoa, that was crazy, but like, actually this is kind of fun.

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Dana
No.

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Robert
So maybe I'll look into a little bit more of this whole multi-pitch world or like, Talk about it a little bit And was it like close to your limit or were you guys kind of on cruise control at like a five, six and you've been projecting air route equipped or like what, ah what did it all look like?

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
Just a little more context. Cause it does sound like a pretty route adventure.

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Dana
Totally. Yeah, it sure So the the climb goes at 5'9". So like the climbing was not challenging. um And I like there's so many bolts that I actually z-clipped on this climb.

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Dana
So like it is bolted.

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Robert
Love that.

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Dana
It's on a multi-pitch.

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Ari Grode
Wow.

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Dana
I'm like, yeah, it was really wild.

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Robert
i've heard it I've heard that's more common on multi-pitches.

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Dana
But

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Robert
That's how it goes. you know just Once you get to that second, third pitch and using the fourth rope, you never know who you're clipping.

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Dana
yeah. Yeah.

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Dana
exactly you get it you've clearly done a multi-pitch climb um but yeah so I mentioned the approach I mean that we really underestimated it like we were gonna we were gonna walk it the day before um but we had a great time drinking beer and eating baguettes and like could not be bothered to like leave the little cute exactly exactly so um so we didn't pre-walk the approach we got up really really early um you know

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Robert
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Robert
right.

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Ari Grode
Thank you.

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Dana
probably like four and the approach is 20 minutes. And so we're like, cool, 20 minutes, do do do but it's in the dark and it's Choss and we are Midwestern climbers from the gym. And so, um yeah, the 20 minute approach. And I hope someone listening to this knows this approach because it took us four hours.

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Dana
um And I have like, we almost weren't friends by the end of the approach.

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Robert
Wow.

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Dana
Like it was honestly like really tense because we were like, we're going to have to

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Robert
Yeah. Sounds like you almost yeah almost weren't climbing partners by the approach.

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Dana
No, and truly, like, we were, like, we'd have to fly back and, like, tell our friends we couldn't find it.

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Robert
Yeah. Yeah.

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Dana
Like, how embarrassing is that?

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Robert
yeah This 1,800-foot cliff just wasn't there.

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Dana
I...

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Ari Grode
was it was it Was it like...

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Ari Grode
Was it like hidden? Like, I i mean... Okay.

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Dana
Listen, i don't even know.

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Robert
Were you bush-becking or was it

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Dana
Like, I... ah We shouldn't have been.

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Robert
fair? Yeah, yeah.

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Dana
ah It's mostly like cha scrambling, um but we shouldn't have even been going up. Like, I don't know. Like at one point we just like Clint turned left and found a bolt. And I was like, I have no idea how you found that bolt.

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Dana
Like it was just like all of a sudden there. And like, we should have approached it from the right. And like, did we walk around this entire, like it was wild. Like, I don't know. It was honestly a miracle that we found the climb. um And then, yeah, I mean like, sorry, go ahead.

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Robert
So I was going to say, so like sunrise start did not have obviously.

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Dana
Oh, no. Yeah, I think we started at like, like 9am.

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Robert
The rest the day, what'd that look like?

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
Okay.

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Dana
ah So the climbing itself was pretty chill.

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Robert
Nice.

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Dana
um and We did get a little lost finding trying to find pitch seven. And in our minds, we were very close to just like, walking right off the side of the mountain. um Sorry, mom. But, ah you know, I think in in reality, we probably weren't that close. I think if you ask Clint, he would think that we had been very close. But um You know, there was a little bit of a hairy situation trying to like find the pitch because like we were so scared of not being tied to the rock.

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Dana
And so anytime when we had to do a transition where we were like not clipped to an anchor, like we were both just like a little on edge because we just had never been in exposure before ever. Like nothing at the red is exposed.

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Dana
There's like maybe two climbs, you know?

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Robert
Yeah.

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Dana
ah

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Ari Grode
Yeah, you got like, you got two or three PASs that you make sure you're in at all times.

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Dana
Yeah, exactly.

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Ari Grode
Like, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure.

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Dana
Exactly. But we did eventually find pitch seven and then, you know, we still had 11 pitches to go. um And so we, ah two other mistakes that were made, which was that we didn't really eat.

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Dana
um

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Ari Grode
Classic.

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Dana
And wore really aggressive shoes, ah which, you know, i guess that's his, his, yeah, exactly.

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Robert
Yep.
Ari Grode
Oh, wow.

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Robert
And they're

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Dana
Over 18 pitches, a 10 hour day, he was wearing Squamers. What's sharp shamans, evolved shamans.

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Ari Grode
Oh, oh man.

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Dana
I know.

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Robert
Yeah.

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Robert
But I mean, how else are you going to toe down on the five, nine crux? dude I mean, then you don't know what's coming. That's.

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Ari Grode
is

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Dana
those, like, five, four slab pitches in the middle, which are bolted.

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Robert
Mm hmm.

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Dana
Yes.

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Ari Grode
is Is this root called fly boys?

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Robert
that

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Dana
yes

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Ari Grode
Okay. I was just looking it up. Yeah. I, okay. Yes. Yeah. Uh, shamans, maybe not the move on this.

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Dana
I think he knows that now, but you know, we were trying to save money. um But anyway, so yeah, we like also bonked on pitch 16. And like, again, like there was a moment where we thought we might have to bivy because we were like, had not eaten We'd been climbing,

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Robert
a With no food.

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Dana
for hours. but We couldn't find the pitch. and We were losing daylight. like It was dusk at this point. um And like we both were just like, I don't know. I don't want to walk off the side of the mountain. you know like I can't see it from here. So maybe we just wait. i don't like It was like they were like we were not doing well ah mentally. man. Oh, yeah.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Ari Grode
So this whole thing was like a proper adventure, like from from the approach to the and the end.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Dana
It really was... oh yeah

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Ari Grode
Okay.

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Robert
And did you have any idea, like, it was it supposed to be an easy repel situation or did you have to go find a whole different...

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Dana
yeah yeah it really was

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Dana
Yeah, so i'll I'll get to that. Yeah.

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Robert
Okay, okay.

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Dana
um Fun fact, i had never, and again, you know, don't, don't do this, but I had never repelled um when I set off for this climb.

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Robert
Nice. Nice.

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Dana
I conceptually felt that I could if I needed to, but I had never done it myself. um So anyways, yeah, so Clint found pitch 17. He just like turned again, like, I don't know, he's good at finding things apparently, but he found the pitch.

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Dana
um And then we finished the last two pitches we topped out like as we lost light. And so we hiked the descent for this climb, thank God is typically done as a mountain bike ride. And so we rented mountain bikes from, yeah, of course, from the gear store in town, stashed them up at the top of the route and then mountain bike 10 miles in the dark um holding a beer.

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Robert
like that oh wait wait

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Robert
Ari why are we not doing multi-pitch routes with mountain bike descents we've been hiking down the whole time like that is these exist that is rad yeah

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Dana
as the dissent.

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Dana
It was so sick.

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Ari Grode
That sounds way better than repelling 18 pitches.

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Dana
Exactly, yeah exactly. Because we would have, yeah, we would have had a baby if we had to rebel.

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Robert
probably down the mountain in 40 minutes just chilling.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
Dang. All right. Wait, wait. Are either of you like proficient mountain bikers or is it like a, well, we know how to climb. I'm sure we can figure out mountain biking.

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Dana
Not...

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Dana
It was not hard, like it was like a gravel road. Like it was just like a low angle.

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Robert
Oh, what a dream.

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Dana
Like you just kind of cruise. Oh my God. Yeah. No cars, like not too steep, not too flat. Yeah.

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Robert
What's the closest, do you happen to know what the closest airport is to this particular climb?

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Dana
Highly recommend.

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Robert
Because this sounds pretty sick.

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Dana
Uh, we flew to Seattle. Yeah.

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Robert
Done. All right, when are we doing it? All right, this sounds rad. Mountain bike down? Incredible. All right. So you get up losing light.

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Dana
Yeah.

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Robert
Sounds like the biking down went pretty chill. And then like you get back to camp. Did you immediately have this revelation of like, Oh, you know what?

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Dana
It did, yeah. Yeah.

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Robert
Multi pitch is kind of fun. I'm into this adventure thing. Or did it take like a couple of weeks for it to like set on you? Like, no, that was actually pretty sick. Yeah.

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Dana
It was like pretty immediate, um i think for both of us. Like I ended up ah writing an essay um about my journey to trad climbing. It's posted on Project Direct's blog. But in that essay, my editor um came up with this analogy that I think is really on point, which is like, it's like walking back into the gym felt like walking into your old middle school.

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Dana
Like it just like, it just felt, had that like dingy outgrown feeling. And the gym is fine. Like it's great. It's a good gym. But like, it just like, I was like, this is a different sport entirely, you know? And like, it didn't like, I felt inspired in Mazama.

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Robert
Oh.

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Dana
And like, now I know that like that inspiration, that's the feeling that I need to chase. um And like everything else is just how I get there.

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Robert
Yeah, that's powerful. Walking into the gym felt like walking into your old middle school.

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Ari Grode
That's

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Robert
That like immediately just like, oh, yeah, no, I get that for sure. That's amazing.

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Dana
I know.

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Robert
So what you were you like, oh, I need to go back to Mazama like 17 times.

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Dana
Yeah, it feels gross.

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Robert
Now this is dope. Or was it like, okay, what's the next biggest, baddest multi-pitch that fits me?

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Dana
Yeah, so it was actually Clint, sorry, I didn't mean to just talk over you there.

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Robert
you're good.

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Dana
But um yeah, it was actually Clint that said, you know, like, have you heard of Wadi Rum?

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Robert
You're good.

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Dana
And like, I again had that feeling, like the same feeling of like, when he had mentioned Flyboys, which was just like, holy shit, what if I could?

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Robert
Oh.

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Dana
You know, like, I just like looked at this place, and it's halfway across the world. And I i love to travel and like, I've done a lot of solo traveling and I just like looked up Wadi Ram and was like, yo, like that exists. Like, how can I, how can I do that?

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Dana
Um, and yeah, so that was kind of like the next thing that I set my sights on, um, move to ahead.

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Ari Grode
at Yeah. Okay. i was going to say i was going to say, and this, this I assume occurs kind of when you're out in California.

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Dana
Yeah. so I moved to California, um and was working in San Francisco and just like started to have this realization. I i was like, I don't know, about 30 at the time. And I was like, I'm not, I'm not getting any younger, you know, like the time to live my life is now. And like, if I care about, like, if I want to go to Wadi Rum, how do I make that happen? Like, what does that look like?

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Dana
You know, like, I don't know anyone who wants to go. i don't even know anyone who trad climbs. Like, how do i get to this place? And, and I don't know. I mean, it's interesting because there is this like, when I wanted to learn trad climbing, it's kind of like, there's this stigma against wanting to ask for help or like wanting to like seek out ah like opportunities to learn um in a sense that like, you know, like one time I posted on a Facebook group and was like, Hey, like I want to learn trad climbing. Does anyone know of a good course I can take or like anyone know like a good, like way that I can get these skills in the Bay area.

298
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Dana
And, you know, two or three people posted really helpful responses. And then, like, five or six people were like, I'll take you out. Just message me. Or, like, don't pay for someone. Just go with friends. And I'm like, that would be cool if I had friends. Or, like, you know, then I had, like, all these men. They were all guys that were like, I'll take you out. Just message me. And now I'm like, well, now I'm beholden to your schedule. Now I'm, like...

299
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:35,170
Dana
you're doing me a favor. And I just like, it felt like I wasn't allowed to have agency. Like I wasn't allowed to just be motivated and want to take things into my own hands. It was like, no, no, no, like wait for me to teach you. Like, wait, just wait.

300
00:32:35,170 --> 00:32:47,410
Dana
Cause like, you'll get it eventually. You'll learn eventually. And like, I just felt as a like aspiring trad climber that I was already being pushed out for my like you young ambition basically.

301
00:32:47,410 --> 00:32:48,680
Dana
um And was frustrating.

302
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:55,000
Ari Grode
curious Curious, what did some of those, what did some of that you said there was a couple of good responses. I mean, what were those like in comparison?

303
00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,700
Dana
um Yeah, I mean, someone recommended Sano Adventures, um which is, yeah, yeah.

304
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:03,090
Ari Grode
Okay, so like actually taking a course or something like that.

305
00:33:03,090 --> 00:33:03,570
Dana
And like, I did take courses with Max.

306
00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:05,820
Ari Grode
Okay, okay.

307
00:33:05,820 --> 00:33:25,090
Dana
And that was kind of like my first introduction to like how to place a cam. And it was great. You know, like, I got good instruction from someone who knew how to teach um and like could teach things in a way that was not just the one way that they learned them and could explain the why behind things. And I was like, everyone should should do this. Like, you know, like, this is dangerous. Let's learn how to do it well.

308
00:33:25,090 --> 00:33:35,470
Dana
Um, so yeah. And, and then like with that kind of like wanting to take agency, I ended up, um, finding a guide for Wadi Rum. And so I went on like a guided trip.

309
00:33:35,470 --> 00:33:36,950
Ari Grode
Oh, no.

310
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:44,800
Dana
Um, and the guide was just terrible. Like the guide was like a complete misogynist. Like he was like, so gatekeepy, like it's really, it's really bad.

311
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:47,100
Ari Grode
oh no

312
00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:48,030
Dana
Um, the climbing was fantastic.

313
00:33:48,030 --> 00:33:49,560
Robert
Yikes.

314
00:33:49,560 --> 00:34:27,690
Dana
Like I went with uh four British people everyone was British I was the only American um and they were just like stoked welcoming kind and like I spent you know my time climbing with them um and then the guide like he just like i don't know he was so rude like I remember um you know he would kind of like pick out climbs for us but he didn't actually like teach us crack skills or like teach us like trad skills. It was just kind of like, uh, you know, here's how here's nuts or something. Like, it was just like, there was no like organization to what he wanted us to walk away from that week with.

315
00:34:27,690 --> 00:34:38,880
Dana
Um, and then, I mean, he was like downright derogatory. Like I remember one time, um i had my nuts racked on like a black, like a normal black diamond wire gate carabiner.

316
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:49,210
Dana
It's just like what I had. It's obviously not, I mean, if you're a trad climber, you know that that's not the best choice of a carabiner for nuts. Like you want like an oval, right? Like something with a wide bottom so you can fit all the wires on it. But didn't have that.

317
00:34:49,210 --> 00:34:53,810
Ari Grode
are you Are you telling me that's why every time I'm climbing with my nuts, stave they fall off?

318
00:34:53,810 --> 00:34:56,040
Dana
Yeah, exactly. and

319
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,400
Ari Grode
this No, this is this is a legitimate problem.

320
00:34:58,400 --> 00:34:58,560
Dana
yeah, that's what happened.

321
00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,400
Robert
ah

322
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:10,720
Dana
So I was like on like pitch three of this climb and Like, i like, dropped two nuts off of my carabiner because I had way too many nuts on this carabiner. And the guy just fully was like, you're so disorganized.

323
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:12,400
Dana
I can't believe you did that. You're so stupid for having your nuts on the wrong carabiner.

324
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,120
Ari Grode
ah wow.

325
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:23,840
Dana
This was my, like... like such a new trad climber like I had never placed nuts before he's like you're never gonna make it as a trad climber I've been watching you climb you are always pulling trad climbing is not about pulling you need to be on your feet real trad climbers never take on gear sport climbers have no place on a big wall like he just like went off and it was like like this is but not a joke like it sounds like a villain in a movie but like straight up like he just like

326
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:37,280
Ari Grode
god and

327
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:45,250
Dana
took this opportunity when no one else was around to just like fully tell me that I was never going to make it as a trad climber. And that's when I knew that I had to make it as a trad climber.

328
00:35:45,250 --> 00:35:49,460
Robert
ha Yeah, that's ah that's that's an interesting choice for someone in the hospitality business.

329
00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:53,670
Ari Grode
I was going to ask what what was that experience like? I mean,

330
00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:54,310
Dana
Exactly.

331
00:35:54,310 --> 00:36:05,250
Ari Grode
Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, I mean, what was the, I mean, you just kind of alluded to it, but I mean, what was the response to that? I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like that almost empowered you like versus, you know, took his, took his words to heart.

332
00:36:05,250 --> 00:36:09,560
Dana
Yeah. I mean,

333
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:41,010
Dana
Yeah, well, I was just like, I don't know. I mean, I don't think that... i don't think he deserves to, like, gatekeep this experience. Like, I don't think that... I mean, I was right away. I was like, you're just intimidated that I'm young and strong. Like he's older, you know, he was like very burnt out from guiding and like, these aren't excuses. It's just like things that me and the other people on the trip really noticed and like would talk about, you know, like we were just like, this guy does not like his job and he's stuck, you know? And then like, here comes me sport climber from red river Red River Gorge, like always had muscles, you know? And like, I just think he felt threatened.

334
00:36:41,010 --> 00:37:04,420
Dana
And I was like, i I know that I can use my strength to do really cool stuff. And like, I pull a lot because I'm from the Red River Gorge and that's how we rock climb. um So yeah, i I think I just like, i don't know. I mean, I don't like to say that I like wanted to prove him wrong because I believe that I found trad climbing because it spoke to who I am and who I want to be.

335
00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:22,170
Dana
And I don't want to live in a world where the things that I'm most proud of are based on stepping on people who wronged me um I just don't think that they deserve that. um I don't think that those people deserve to like have helped me, I guess. So um

336
00:37:22,170 --> 00:37:24,670
Ari Grode
It may be a little, little fuel under the fire. I mean, there's the, there's the famous Lynn Hill story of, I forget what the guy's name is.

337
00:37:24,670 --> 00:37:28,750
Dana
certainly.

338
00:37:28,750 --> 00:37:34,420
Ari Grode
I mean, ah but you know, he said no woman will ever climb five fourteen a and then she climbed like one of his roots, you know, as the first woman to climb 514.

339
00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:38,410
Dana
Yeah.

340
00:37:38,410 --> 00:37:39,320
Ari Grode
you know.

341
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:46,780
Dana
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, it was, it was definitely a little bit, a little bit of that for sure.

342
00:37:46,780 --> 00:37:55,100
Robert
so while you're on climbing was fun guide terrible how long were you out there for? And then when you came back, what was that full transformation?

343
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:58,570
Dana
um

344
00:37:58,570 --> 00:37:59,300
Dana
Yeah, that was a,

345
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:14,500
Robert
Like, cause obviously there was a little more motivation for some other things, but just curious too. Cause that was like, that was kind of like second phase of like multi-pitch and like, Oh, there, here's, here's like my, i would say your motivation for trad climbing.

346
00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:18,030
Robert
Right. So like you go to that Mecca, come back blank canvas.

347
00:38:18,030 --> 00:38:19,460
Dana
Yeah.

348
00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:20,710
Robert
Now what?

349
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:32,160
Dana
Yeah. Yeah, totally. So the climbing experience in Wadi Rum was absolutely incredible. And this was my first time climbing trad multi-pitch. It was the first place I ever physically repelled by myself.

350
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:32,570
Robert
Nice.

351
00:38:32,570 --> 00:38:33,510
Dana
So we we we ticked that box.

352
00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:35,230
Robert
No mountain bikes. Got it.

353
00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:35,340
Dana
yeah No mountain bikes this time had to repel.

354
00:38:35,340 --> 00:38:37,470
Robert
Yep.

355
00:38:37,470 --> 00:38:48,320
Dana
um But yeah, I mean, I think like I just saw this ability, this like opportunity for creativity in trad climbing. Like it is so cool to go out with your partner.

356
00:38:48,320 --> 00:39:04,070
Dana
and like find just like rocks and there's nothing on them and just think I have the skills and the tools to get up this. Like that's just really cool. Like i just like, it it feels very much like an adventure of my own design.

357
00:39:04,070 --> 00:39:24,820
Dana
um Like I get to make the decisions, I get to do it in a way that I want, I get to make it, you know? Like I create my like experience on this climb. And and so I was just like really like inspired by it And when I got back from Wadi Rum,

358
00:39:24,820 --> 00:39:48,030
Dana
was really, really interested in Yosemite um and living in San Francisco, Yosemite is like four to five hours away, depending on traffic. And I just like, I really like, try like climbing granite and gym climbing are two different sports entirely. And I knew that if I stayed in San Francisco, I was never going to know if I could be the trad climber that I wanted to be.

359
00:39:48,030 --> 00:40:00,710
Dana
Like, I felt like in order to get good at trad climbing, I needed to like live, breathe and like sleep trad climbing. um Because I thought that if stayed in San Francisco and like,

360
00:40:00,710 --> 00:40:25,910
Dana
was just like oh try to climb here and there on the weekends it's like I'm never gonna get over that fear right like every time you go out you're gonna like have that like ounce of fear again and like you're gonna have to like relearn the same lesson over and over and over again it's be really hard to progress from that one lesson um like I always say that I don't want it people to think of trad climbing as like a vacation activity like it's something that you do sometimes And that's nice, but that's it.

361
00:40:25,910 --> 00:40:40,920
Dana
yeah You know, like we go out and we just do a couple five tens and then we don't do it again for three months. And, you know, and if if that's what you like to do, then like, that's great. But I just want to like, for the people that treat trad climbing that way, just like more is possible for you.

362
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:52,080
Dana
um Like training is a big part of that. Seeing more for yourself is a big part of that, but it just, it anyone can progress their trad climbing if you put intentional effort into it.

363
00:40:52,080 --> 00:41:07,380
Dana
Um, so yeah, I, to your question, when I got back from Wadi Rum, uh, very shortly after I moved to Yosemite, um, took a job cleaning bathrooms there um, I had a really bad pulley injury. So I like couldn't sport climb at all. And like, all I could do was like five, eight hand cracks.

364
00:41:07,380 --> 00:41:14,040
Dana
So I guess it worked out in some ways. Um, but yeah, that was, that was what was next.

365
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:14,260
Robert
Yeah, that makes lot of sense.

366
00:41:14,260 --> 00:41:15,970
Ari Grode
what What did that progression look like?

367
00:41:15,970 --> 00:41:20,970
Robert
ah Oh, sorry. I was going to say, I live in New York, so like I go to the gunks. That's like my closest crap.

368
00:41:20,970 --> 00:41:22,010
Dana
Yeah.

369
00:41:22,010 --> 00:41:34,580
Robert
um But it's like, if I don't go on a relatively like consistent schedule, which sometimes is tough for me because I travel a lot with work, it's like, oh, you you haven't been in here for like five months? like Oh, you're kind of not in like the gunks mindset, right?

370
00:41:34,580 --> 00:41:35,950
Robert
It's like, you're not used to places and all that, right?

371
00:41:35,950 --> 00:41:36,900
Dana
Yeah,

372
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:56,970
Robert
So can totally relate to that. um But I was going to ask like how long did that Yosemite chapter sort of last? Like where you, you clean the bathrooms and then you're kind of jamming hand cracks for five, eight. And then like your pulley is better and you're, you're gone. Or were you there for, for a pretty hot stint?

373
00:41:56,970 --> 00:41:56,980
Dana
yeah so it's like, sorry, ahead.

374
00:41:56,980 --> 00:42:02,060
Ari Grode
and And, and, and also like, what did the, I mean, what did the progression look like?

375
00:42:02,060 --> 00:42:08,560
Ari Grode
You know, ah now that you're kind of tried climbing on your own in a, you know, in a spot like Yosemite where the, you know, the world's moister.

376
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:32,830
Dana
Yeah. Yeah, totally. So I was there for six months. um And yeah, like i was a sport climber. And so I had this like sporty strength, like I had like Red River Gorge biceps. And like, that didn't immediately help me out in trad climbing, because there was so much mentally to understand and, and like, get a grasp of.

377
00:42:32,830 --> 00:42:44,370
Dana
um So there's this like phase when you're a new trad climber, where it's like all about Like learning to trust your gear, learning to place good gear, learning what you can do with gear, like how to pace yourself, how to breathe, how to have like, how to find moments of pause where you can place a cam, how to know when you can't place a cam, like all of these like trad logistics.

378
00:42:44,370 --> 00:42:52,360
Robert
you

379
00:42:52,360 --> 00:43:08,690
Dana
And until you can really feel confident in like that, like group of skills, the strength aspect is like only going to be so useful. And so it's not that like the strength that I had built wasn't useful. It's just that it wasn't fully able to be unlocked yet.

380
00:43:08,690 --> 00:43:30,520
Dana
um And so I kind of like that phase was basically like my six months in Yosemite. Like I, you know, had kind of just started to come out of like the learning phase and into like more of the confidence phase. And I'd done like a couple five tens, but I was still like, you know, super new. And so after,

381
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:44,030
Dana
Yosemite, I just like dirtbagged in my car for a while, um went to Indian Creek and ah Indian Creek is a great place for like the phase of trad climbing I was in because you just get like, like,

382
00:43:44,030 --> 00:43:47,340
Dana
practice at all sizes for so long right like Yosemite like the granite kind of like ebbs and flows and and there's like lots of different options and I love climbing on granite um but you can kind of almost avoid certain skills um at least at like the lower levels like I never learned how to ring lock properly until I went to Indian Creek and by the way ring locks is the top skill that I think

383
00:43:47,340 --> 00:44:07,810
Robert
Thank you.

384
00:44:07,810 --> 00:44:25,890
Dana
like will help ah moderate trad climbers progress. So a lot of trad climbers think they know what a ring lock is and and don't or say that they can ring lock but have never like done it satisfyingly. And like once you can pull like a satisfying ring lock, like so much unlocks for you.

385
00:44:25,890 --> 00:44:36,420
Dana
It's like that's one of the skills also that like as a coach, I really make sure that my clients like understand and are properly using. It's so, so useful.

386
00:44:36,420 --> 00:44:42,730
Robert
So what made you, like, i'm I'm guessing it may have been weather, but like, what made you leave yo Yosemite and then dirt back and go to Indian Creek as opposed to just like, but yeah, weather.

387
00:44:42,730 --> 00:44:52,720
Dana
Yeah, weather. Yeah. Yeah, so left Yosemite. um Also, I ah was dating someone who was like, let's go to the creek. And so like November is like is a good time for the creek.

388
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:54,920
Robert
Nice. Yeah, yeah.

389
00:44:54,920 --> 00:45:12,170
Dana
And he'd been there a lot. had lot of friends there that are now, you know, my friends too. And um so, yeah, we did November in the Creek and then went to Joshua Tree for the winter. And I think like coming out of like my Creek bootcamp, like moving into Joshua Tree is where I really found like the fire for trad climbing, like really started to bring out, bring into trad climbing, like my,

390
00:45:12,170 --> 00:45:17,250
Robert
Okay. Cool.

391
00:45:17,250 --> 00:45:29,570
Dana
sport confidence and like really felt like the movement and the strength that I had been like gaining throughout my climbing career could really be put into practice in Joshua Tree when I started to project there.

392
00:45:29,570 --> 00:45:29,580
Ari Grode
And what were you mainly like i mean were you mainly keeping it within a ah relatively conservative grade where you know it was more like cruiser? Or were you starting to add in some of those, like you said, re Red River Gorge projecting skills and like you know try some harder single pitch stride, or maybe multi-pitch, but some harder trad climbs that are going to actually push you to you know take falls on your gear and and unlock that whole element?

393
00:45:29,580 --> 00:45:43,400
Robert
cool

394
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:50,680
Dana
Yeah.

395
00:45:50,680 --> 00:46:03,330
Dana
Yeah. Yeah, totally. So for me, it's like, it's all about like what inspires me. Like it's all about like what gets me so excited. And so as like an overhung climber, um,

396
00:46:03,330 --> 00:46:24,210
Dana
roof cracks were really interesting to me. i had never tried them, but I was like, this might be an interesting kind of like combination of the things that I like. And so rather than like, you know, I i probably should have just been like, let's climb every five, 10 in Joshua Tree. But instead I got really obsessed with more monkey than funky, um which is a mid 11 roof crack in Joshua Tree. It's a roof crack with a, with a steep overhung head wall.

397
00:46:24,210 --> 00:46:46,500
Dana
um And the crux is actually in the head wall. And yeah, for whatever reason, like this climb just like stole my heart and it was all I wanted to do. um And it felt like a little intense um as like my first, like, I don't know, like welcome to trad projecting, but I think it needed to be um for me to like learn what, or like find what I needed to find.

398
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:47,590
Dana
um And like that really, sorry, go ahead.

399
00:46:47,590 --> 00:46:51,720
Ari Grode
yeah That's a pretty dead horizontal roof. I just i just looked it up.

400
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:52,010
Dana
Yeah, so the roof is is not the hard part.

401
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:55,120
Ari Grode
yeah

402
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:55,650
Dana
um The roof is like, is hands.

403
00:46:55,650 --> 00:46:56,840
Ari Grode
Okay.

404
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:15,280
Dana
The roof is really chill, actually. The roof is like, it's just fun. um the crux is coming out of the head wall and then um there's a tricky gear placement kind of like when you stand up out of the crux and then you have to like go left on ah kind of like small techie edges and it is all just like a little bit overhung, you know?

405
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,990
Dana
So like by Red River Gorge standards, it is not overhung, but like, man, was that thing pumpy still, you know?

406
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:19,720
Ari Grode
Yeah.

407
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:32,150
Dana
Like it's kind of insane. ah But yeah, I tend to look at projects um as like, the climber that I want to be can do this.

408
00:47:32,150 --> 00:47:47,580
Dana
um So I don't look for something where it's like, yeah, I can probably send that in three or four sessions. It's like, whoa, like, what if I could do that? You know, like, how cool would it be if I could be the person that climbs that, you know, and and really figuring out like how to how to become that person.

409
00:47:47,580 --> 00:48:01,430
Dana
And so it's not to say that I... Like, don't think like, I like when a climb feels a little impossible at the start, because that to me is like, ooh, how can we move this boundary? You know, like it feels impossible. I bet it's not, you know, and I kind of like place that bet with myself.

410
00:48:01,430 --> 00:48:14,000
Dana
ah So yeah, that that's kind of like why I picked more monkey. um And that climb was just like, kind of all about finding my confidence in trad climbing.

411
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,630
Dana
Yeah.

412
00:48:15,630 --> 00:48:19,030
Ari Grode
And so how did it go? I mean, what did it, did did it take you quite a while or was there, you know, how how did you kind of break it down into like this thing that now you were able to, to do?

413
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:25,040
Dana
Yeah, it it did. It like,

414
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:31,730
Dana
yeah. So the first couple of times i went out there, i was just like, this climb is way too hard for me. This is way too hard for me. I made like almost no moves in the roof.

415
00:48:31,730 --> 00:48:33,150
Robert
Thank you.

416
00:48:33,150 --> 00:48:44,160
Dana
Like I fully aided the climb a couple of sessions and like, I just was like, I don't even know what I'm doing, but you know, part of me like was too scared to like try on sighting other things. So it's just like, I've already opened this one up.

417
00:48:44,160 --> 00:49:03,180
Dana
Let's just fuck around on this and like, see what happens. And, um, I like, you know, kind of was like, okay, like you can't aid this thing forever. And so i had to start kind of making moves, but I was still really tentative. Like I was climbing with a lot of different partners, lot of people I didn't know. i was just like, whoever wanted to go at this climb with me, I would bring to this climb.

418
00:49:03,180 --> 00:49:17,540
Dana
And like, some of them like onsighted it in front of me. And like, not that that was rude. Like I'm fine, like climb the climb you're going climb it. Like, I don't really have feelings about that, but it's just like seeing that I would put that climber in a different category than me.

419
00:49:17,540 --> 00:49:20,080
Dana
Like, I'd be like, oh, like this climb is for them.

420
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:20,090
Dana
i don't even know if I'll send this this year. Like they are strong and they send this climb and I'm just over here like fucking around and like, you know, maybe someday I'll send it. And like, I kind of just like didn't allow myself to believe that I was good enough.

421
00:49:20,090 --> 00:49:33,410
Robert
Thank you.

422
00:49:33,410 --> 00:49:48,670
Dana
um And I guess like what changed was um I went out there with like, my partner and his, one of his best friends, like one of our best friends. um And like, they watched me climb it and they were like, Hey, like, you know, you can do this, right?

423
00:49:48,670 --> 00:50:09,880
Dana
You know? And like, it was almost like the same lesson as Banshee where it was like, I, I didn't really, i i wish that I could have known it myself before someone that I trusted had to tell me, I guess, but like, here we were. And like hearing them say that was like, okay, here's two people that know me, they know my climbing. And like, I do trust their opinion. And so it was like, what if I, what if I believed that this climb was for me too?

424
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:34,240
Dana
you know like what if I believed that like I was just as capable ah as like the people that I've seen climb this and like I just I had created this like false barrier um of like no I'm not good enough and and I'm good enough to try I'm good enough to be here and I'm good enough to try and I'm good enough to flail but I'm like not really good enough to send um and so like what changed was like just like I just decided to stop wasting time.

425
00:50:34,240 --> 00:50:55,330
Dana
Like I had a long time in Joshua Tree and so I was able to like not really put a timeline on myself and then it came to that and I was like I i need to just push myself harder. Like I need to like and unravel this and like push myself harder and um that really is what changed was like the ability to see myself as a person who sends this climb um and like put myself in that category.

426
00:50:55,330 --> 00:51:02,180
Robert
That's awesome. So when did, when did you end up ah putting it down? Like what was, what was about the timeframe on this?

427
00:51:02,180 --> 00:51:06,690
Dana
This was 2023? three February, i think?

428
00:51:06,690 --> 00:51:07,920
Robert
Okay.

429
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:08,510
Dana
Yeah.

430
00:51:08,510 --> 00:51:25,230
Robert
Nice. Super cool. So then you like, did you have much more time left in Joshua tree? It sounds like you were kind of getting close. Like, did you find any other projects or was it kind of like, that was sort of the end of the Joshua tree chapter. And then, and then there was kind of ah time to move on again.

431
00:51:25,230 --> 00:51:30,090
Dana
Yeah, I opened up a couple things. I mean, i don't know that I'll ever have, like, four months in Joshua Tree again. I sure hope I do, but, like,

432
00:51:30,090 --> 00:51:31,700
Robert
yeah Yeah.

433
00:51:31,700 --> 00:52:08,790
Dana
um leave it to beaver is one that i want to go back for that's like well within my wheelhouse right now um i was just out there over new year's and got to get on it one time um and the other one that like is has that like inspiration factor to me right now is acid crack um which i just like i feel such as like such strong feelings for it it's like unreasonable like it's this insane like kind of like contrived crack that has these like sporty movements on small gear. And it's just like, it's power, it's finesse, it's accuracy, like it's risk. It's like, it just, it's so cool.

434
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:15,230
Dana
And so if I ever get extended time in Joshua Tree again, that's where you'll find me probably.

435
00:52:15,230 --> 00:52:20,010
Ari Grode
Yeah, i just I just pulled up the root here. that Wow. Yeah, that does look really hard.

436
00:52:20,010 --> 00:52:20,770
Dana
Yeah.

437
00:52:20,770 --> 00:52:21,260
Ari Grode
lot of... ah Yeah, it's not like a straight-end splitter or anything.

438
00:52:21,260 --> 00:52:25,440
Dana
Yeah, it looks terrifying. Yeah.

439
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:25,600
Ari Grode
It's like full-body engagement.

440
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,180
Dana
Oh no.

441
00:52:28,180 --> 00:52:29,440
Ari Grode
That's cool. um

442
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,240
Dana
yeah

443
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:51,680
Ari Grode
So, you know... it it may be a good time to transition to kind of your, your move into the coaching world. I mean, I'm picking up in this conversation that ah you're very good at like, you're very good at like imagining kind of where you want to be and then putting the pieces together, you know, and figuring out how to, how to get there.

444
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:51,760
Ari Grode
um It also seems like you've had maybe some, some positive and some negative experiences in developing some of these skills.

445
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:57,890
Dana
yeah

446
00:52:57,890 --> 00:53:13,430
Ari Grode
I mean, was that, when did the When did the idea of like, um might maybe want to try to impart some of these skills or some of these experiences onto other people to help them have maybe a better experience ah getting into something like drag climbing?

447
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:30,840
Dana
Yeah, I mean, i think like i have just had such powerful experiences trad climbing. um Like it is where I can hear myself most clearly. It's where I feel the most like myself and it it gives me ah type of strength that makes me a better person in everything that I do.

448
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:45,840
Dana
And I just believe that climbing is so powerful um and that it's available to anyone who wants it. um And I think when I first started trad climbing, there were, you know, not just that guide, but there were other people, like early mentors who just really made me feel small.

449
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:46,960
Ari Grode
Thank you.

450
00:53:46,960 --> 00:54:06,840
Dana
And like, I didn't deserve to be there. And like, trad climbing is really male dominated. And so like, as a ambitious woman, like people, you can feel like you're being pushed out, you know, like as a new trad climber, like there's this like, just gatekeeping is to it where it's just like, Oh, you know, you should place less gear if you're cool or if you're good at stuff.

451
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:24,720
Dana
And like, there's just like, I think a lot of like the early mentors that I had did not, paint a picture to what trad climbing could do for me or like who I could be as a trad climber. And I think that we are cutting people off before we can ever give them a chance to get started.

452
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:40,060
Dana
And I just like think that climbing is way too powerful to decide who gets to play and who doesn't. um And also like trad climbing is something that can be learned. Like it's not just for the toughest among us. Like it's not just for like,

453
00:54:40,060 --> 00:55:01,560
Dana
ah Like that's for them. They're super brave. And I'm not like, there are ways that we can learn this. And like I said, it's just so powerful. Like, why wouldn't you want to like learn it in a way that is empowering? um So yeah, i wanted to be a coach to help people have better experiences in climbing and training.

454
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:26,320
Dana
I'm really passionate about training because I think that we all can do more than we think we can and kind of understanding like how to identify your limits and how to define which limits are which and what we need to do to break through them in like a really granular way. um Like I just want more people to have those tools um because that's how we get to that space where we find like who we are in climbing.

455
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:39,440
Dana
and And yeah, so I'm just really passionate about that. um i started coaching with Carly from Project Direct, who you've had on the podcast before. um She was my coach after I got off the road.

456
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:51,000
Dana
i hired her as a coach and then kind of like expressed to her that I wanted to get into coaching myself. but She was really excited. And I worked alongside her as an apprentice coach for a while.

457
00:55:51,000 --> 00:56:16,510
Dana
Um, and she, you know, kind of like helped me learn everything that I know. So aside from getting my personal trainer certification, she kind of like helped me adapt that to the climbing world and, and taught me like her systems and how she goes about working with, with clients. And, um, yeah, so I was able to kind of coach like my first cohort of climbing climbers as that apprentice coach. And then I recently just graduated, graduated into like a full, full coach mode.

458
00:56:16,510 --> 00:56:26,800
Ari Grode
Cool. And, and, and it seems like, correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, you're, you're more specifically focusing on working with clients who are interested more in trad climbing, right? Okay.

459
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:55,340
Dana
So that's ah my biggest passion for sure. um But I coach, I coach to everyone. um I'm really passionate about head game, ah like coaching the mental space and also just kind of like helping my climbers break down like the negative thoughts that come from them and also come from the culture. And then also like how to kind of create a healthier perspective and be a part of creating a healthier culture.

460
00:56:55,340 --> 00:57:06,140
Ari Grode
So maybe talk a little bit about, I mean, that stigma around trad climbing. I mean, I know when I was, you you know, first starting to climb, I had the same thought of like, well, why would I ever try to climb?

461
00:57:06,140 --> 00:57:13,080
Ari Grode
That just is super dangerous. I'll never do that. And then, you know, I don't know. It was like, it seemed like two weeks later I had a rack of gear and for some reason I was trying to find it.

462
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:13,920
Dana
Yeah.

463
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:22,480
Ari Grode
And I don't know what, I don't know why that happened, but like, you know, there's a lot of people who have that stigma of, for some reason, you know, tried climbing is associated with danger. It's not associated with climbing.

464
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,200
Dana
yeah

465
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:32,720
Ari Grode
Like you were talking about, it's like a, you know, the roots of canvas and you can create your own experience. It's more like, no, tried climbing is equals danger. i mean, what talk about kind of like how you get around that, that, that stigma.

466
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,400
Dana
Yeah.

467
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:49,130
Dana
Yeah. I think and a lot of the the confidence from like, this is extra dangerous and I'm never going to do it to like, now I can whip on gear is understanding how the systems work, understanding how a cam works.

468
00:57:49,130 --> 00:58:09,150
Dana
um like understanding how a good placement works, like where is a good placement, what kind of cams to use for what kind of rock, um you know, like taking on your gear is like a good first step. So like if you're someone who sends every trad climb that you try, um you probably need to get more comfortable trusting your gear. Because if you're sending everything, like that kind of says to me, you don't trust your gear.

469
00:58:09,150 --> 00:58:33,010
Dana
And if you want to climb harder, if you want to move past your limits, like you have to be able to trust your gear. And so the first step towards that is just like take on your gear, like place it, look at it, you know, don't get your face too close because, you know, just the case, but ah take on that piece of gear and then be like, look it, I'm not going anywhere. Right. And then like the second step, once you've done that, once you feel really confident, once you can take on every single piece on your rack, then you want to start taking practice falls.

470
00:58:33,010 --> 00:58:45,290
Dana
um And like that unlocks so much of track climbing, like even more than sport climbing, because like everyone, every new track climber has in their head, like a mental image of like their gear just zippering.

471
00:58:45,290 --> 00:59:01,310
Dana
Like we've all, we've all seen that happen in our heads, you know? And so like kind of starting to trust that that's not going to happen, that you know how to place good gear and that you can whip on it. Like that is a huge, huge like step in the right direction.

472
00:59:01,310 --> 00:59:19,470
Ari Grode
Yeah, it's ah that's a great shot. I mean, I remember, I think you were there, Rob. ah There was a route in North Carolina. It was a steeper climb called Stokes County Monkey Trial. And I think I was coming off of some some illness or something. So I was i was going for the s send, but I realized partway up, I was like, oh, I definitely do not have this.

473
00:59:19,470 --> 00:59:30,520
Ari Grode
And so I started hanging on all the gear. And it was like the first time I was like, oh, now I'm actually like trusting the pieces that I'm, you know or I'm actually sitting on the pieces that I'm trusting my life to.

474
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:42,720
Ari Grode
And it, like you said, it it really did open up some of that, like, oh, this stuff works. And like, it so you start to like, learn a little bit more about like how to recognize when like a placement is good or when it's maybe not as good.

475
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:47,500
Ari Grode
um Yeah, so that's, I very much relate to what you were saying there.

476
00:59:47,500 --> 00:59:58,450
Dana
Yeah. Yeah. And like beyond that too, like, ah a lot of tread climbers can benefit from, well, one strength training. I think every climber can benefit from strength training.

477
00:59:58,450 --> 01:00:28,160
Dana
And specifically in trad, I find that I lean on my strength training in moments where I'm a little bit scared. Like I'm a little bit scared. Like I just moved above a piece and I didn't really get to a good look at it before I placed I'm pretty sure it's good, but you know, like I just have that like flutter of anxiety, but I strength, so I love strength training. I'm obsessed with it. And like, I can then, you know, be like, okay, that cam is probably good. and And if I move past it, I can look and I can see, okay, I know that I'm strong enough to get through the next eight feet of climbing, and then I can place another cam.

478
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:53,610
Dana
And so like, I can lean on my training and be like, I've put in the work, I know that my body is strong, and I have the confidence to move through the section. And so like, more than just the skill that I get from strength training, it gives me a mental confidence to know that I am strong enough to to do what I'm trying to do. Or like, if I'm like, it's a tricky placement, and I'm like, in kind of like a weird stance, it's like, okay, like my biceps fully engaged, but like,

479
01:00:53,610 --> 01:01:05,370
Dana
I can do this, you know, like it, like rather than thinking like, I wonder how long I can hold this. I can instead flip the script and say like, I know that I can hold this for indefinite amount of time. um So strange things really helpful.

480
01:01:05,370 --> 01:01:06,420
Dana
And then I think,

481
01:01:06,420 --> 01:01:10,000
Ari Grode
kind of Kind of like relying on yourself as your own protection, essentially. Like your climbing a ability is your protection.

482
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,920
Dana
yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

483
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:14,300
Ari Grode
Yeah.

484
01:01:14,300 --> 01:01:34,720
Dana
And then i guess like, The third pillar that I'm really, really passionate about is movement training for trad climbers. um You see this a lot in this in like the sport climbing training arena, but trad climbers, I think, often overlook the need for dynamic climbing skills and the need for like face climbing skills or just like,

485
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,510
Dana
sport movement honestly helps so much with trad climbing.

486
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:37,850
Robert
Thank you.

487
01:01:37,850 --> 01:01:52,050
Dana
Like i you know, like crack climbing skill is one thing, but most cracks, and especially as you get into the higher grades have like some type of like sporty movement or like thing where you have to like be really accurate and like snap back and nail a hold.

488
01:01:52,050 --> 01:02:20,210
Dana
And had I not trained like that type of movement, there are cruxes on routes that I like would not be able to do. And I think um like having my background in movement training like allows me to look at a climb where a lot of tread climbers say, like oh, that's the crux. And I will say, that is not my crux. you know like I know that I can nail these like sporty bouldering moves 100% of every time because I have a lot of movement tools in my toolkit.

489
01:02:20,210 --> 01:02:24,380
Dana
And like that can unlock so much for tread climbers too.

490
01:02:24,380 --> 01:02:40,460
Robert
Yeah, I think Ari talks about this a lot, but like he'll reference, like yeah, you watch Magnus Mitbo climb and you're like, oh, you can be very dynamic on a route that's supposed to be static and it might be easier because that's you're not having to fight to control this thing.

491
01:02:40,460 --> 01:02:42,610
Robert
You can just allow your body to kind of use its own movement get you there.

492
01:02:42,610 --> 01:02:43,500
Dana
Yeah.

493
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:48,200
Robert
and like You always think about like everyone can climb a route differently. right I think you kind touched on that earlier, but it's like,

494
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,240
Dana
here Yeah.

495
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:55,770
Robert
I do think that trad climbing can get pigeonholed into like, Oh, it's, it's like, this is the way or, or nothing. So it's interesting to hear you kind of talk about that a little bit.

496
01:02:55,770 --> 01:02:58,510
Dana
Yeah.

497
01:02:58,510 --> 01:03:07,800
Robert
I also want to go back to one thing you mentioned. I really liked how you said, like you try to take a climb that feels impossible at first and then do what you need to do to make it feel possible from a trad perspective.

498
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:13,090
Dana
here

499
01:03:13,090 --> 01:03:13,990
Robert
I think you mentioned like mental strength and movement.

500
01:03:13,990 --> 01:03:16,280
Ari Grode
Thank you.

501
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:30,300
Robert
Those are kind of like your three pillars, like our, Do you find that it's like a balance of the three when you're training with clients that like kind of works the best? Or is it usually somebody's kind of lacking on one compared to the other, the other two?

502
01:03:30,300 --> 01:03:41,360
Robert
Like, what do you, what do you kind of think ends up having the biggest bang for the buck for the track climber that's sort of trying to like push into those impossible routes for them?

503
01:03:41,360 --> 01:04:32,850
Dana
yeah um it's definitely a combination of all three and it's definitely like going to vary person to person but I think every climber especially every tribe climber can benefit from movement training um like movement training and also just like projecting tactics and mentality I think um I mean depending on the person because a lot of athletes that are trying to push into like the higher grades of, of track climbing come with a base of strength. And so while strength training will help, it's not necessarily what's going to flip the switch, like movement and mental game are, you can see the, you can see the improvement like faster, like that can feel like flipping a switch. Whereas like strength is just like this, like consistently worrying engine in the background that like, you're always building it and you're always gaining it. But if you're not doing movement training also, you're not really learning how to deploy that new strength.

504
01:04:32,850 --> 01:04:50,180
Dana
Like you'll go into a, you know, we have athletes that go into a training program and like get this, like get muscles, you know, like train and like build those muscles. But if you're not also doing movement training, you're like not gonna know how to use those new parts of your body. Like you're gonna keep using your body the same way that you always have, even though you now have like all this new capacity.

505
01:04:50,180 --> 01:04:54,780
Dana
And so movement training is like the linchpin of all of it.

506
01:04:54,780 --> 01:05:07,700
Robert
Cool. And do you, do you like, do you think, I mean, I'm assuming my guess would be no outside of like some of the gear specific training you already mentioned, like hanging on a piece to learn how to trust it. Right.

507
01:05:07,700 --> 01:05:18,870
Robert
But like, is there anything else that sort of stands out from a training perspective that's different from like how you'd approach sport climbing training versus track climbing training?

508
01:05:18,870 --> 01:05:25,970
Dana
Um, I think i kind of want to talk about like the differences in approaching a trad project versus a sport climbing project.

509
01:05:25,970 --> 01:05:27,160
Robert
Cool. Yeah, yeah.

510
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:27,610
Ari Grode
Yeah. Yeah.

511
01:05:27,610 --> 01:05:27,770
Robert
Makes sense.

512
01:05:27,770 --> 01:05:27,790
Ari Grode
yeah

513
01:05:27,790 --> 01:05:28,010
Dana
Um, and, and so like here, the major difference is that you're placing your own gear and that becomes part of the puzzle.

514
01:05:28,010 --> 01:05:35,600
Robert
Yeah.

515
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:46,970
Dana
And it's a part of the puzzle that can like change at any point in the process. And so when I first started trad projecting, it was like, okay, get your gear. Okay. Put that in a box, lock it down. The gear is done.

516
01:05:46,970 --> 01:06:00,580
Dana
But now I've learned that gear is actually like a conversation and it can change as you get to know the route. And so like a part of the route that might've felt cruxy in the beginning, maybe now you don't need a piece there and now you can save a little bit of energy and you have more energy for the crux.

517
01:06:00,580 --> 01:06:00,890
Robert
Thank you.

518
01:06:00,890 --> 01:06:13,050
Dana
So like getting to manipulate that part of the climb and like having, i guess like the aptitude to know when you need to save energy or like not is is different.

519
01:06:13,050 --> 01:06:18,520
Dana
um Yeah, I think,

520
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:20,490
Dana
Does that answer your that answer your question?

521
01:06:20,490 --> 01:06:21,460
Robert
Definitely. I mean, I think that like kind of running through those types of scenarios, which which makes sense, right?

522
01:06:21,460 --> 01:06:24,700
Ari Grode
Definitely.

523
01:06:24,700 --> 01:06:41,840
Robert
Because there are so many more moving parts once you start getting into trad climbing. So it's like, well, yeah, training and like your strength and all of that is one part of it. But there are these other levels where you can become more efficient in that. You can dial in logistics for that, right? like So it does kind of make sense to...

524
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:58,000
Robert
to look back at some areas that may not have felt super secure earlier. Like when you first pulled on, you're like, whoa, this project, no chance it's ever going, but now you're halfway up it and you're maybe two hanging it. And now, so it's like, well, maybe you really don't need that first piece. That makes a lot of sense.

525
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:04,450
Dana
Yeah, I think another thing um that I approach a little bit differently is actually ah bouldering. So I am not a dirtbag anymore.

526
01:07:04,450 --> 01:07:06,100
Ari Grode
Okay.

527
01:07:06,100 --> 01:07:18,010
Dana
I live in a city. i climb at a bouldering gym. um Shout out Boulder Field. It's amazing. um It's the first bouldering gym I've ever loved. And like I actually like bouldering now because I have also related it back to my trad climbing.

528
01:07:18,010 --> 01:07:36,600
Dana
um And I Bouldering, like I used to hate it. And um now I've found that bouldering can be really effective training for trad climbing. um Not just because of like the movement component that we were discussing a minute ago, but um also like bouldering like trad climbing carries risk.

529
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:48,230
Dana
Like if you fuck up, you hit the ground. So like, there is like that element of like, keep your head on your shoulders, pay attention, like do it well, do it right, do it safely. And that mental space is the same.

530
01:07:48,230 --> 01:08:10,140
Dana
And like, we can find that mental space, like at the top of a bouldering wall in a gym, if we look for it, right? So like, if you know to like pay attention to that little piece of your brain that says like, ooh, I'm a little insecure right now, rather than just bailing, it's like, okay, this feeling, like I actually need to like train this. Like I need a script in my brain for what to happen when this feeling, when I feel this feeling, it's like, I'm a little insecure. What do I do about it?

531
01:08:10,140 --> 01:08:22,580
Dana
If you're bouldering, you might just hop off, but then you're kind of missing out on like the mental training and like the opportunity to get stronger there. And so like, rather than saying like, ah, I'm scared, let's bail. Like, how can I create stability in that movement, in that moment?

532
01:08:22,580 --> 01:08:35,350
Dana
So like, if it's an insecure position, like what can I change to find, it to make this into a rest or like at least an exhale, you know, like, can I find stability in this moment? Because as trad climbers, like we need to find those stable positions to place gear.

533
01:08:35,350 --> 01:08:47,490
Dana
And so we don't always have them and sometimes we need to create them. And so you can practice that when you're bouldering. Like this feels a little sketchy. Can I do it in a way that doesn't feel sketchy? Or is it going to feel sketchy? I need to move fast.

534
01:08:47,490 --> 01:09:10,910
Dana
Like just paying attention to kind of that like little anxiety meter internally. and I use videos for this a lot of the time. So like, if I'm like, okay, that felt insecure. And then I look at the video and I'm like, well, duh, because your knee is in your chest. Like, and that's obviously like a really exaggerated example, but um you know, you can see things in your video and and kind of start to understand like how to create that stability in those unstable moments.

535
01:09:10,910 --> 01:09:24,390
Ari Grode
Is more of the work that you do with clients more focused on building those types of skills that we were just talking about in the gym or or more on outdoors or more outdoors where they can actually trad climb?

536
01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:25,470
Ari Grode
Because i mean, that's the big difference there between trad climbing and sport climbing is you can actually practice sport climbing in the gym, but there's no way to actually you know practice placing gear in a controlled facility like that.

537
01:09:25,470 --> 01:09:29,840
Dana
Yeah. Yeah.

538
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:36,410
Dana
Yep.

539
01:09:36,410 --> 01:09:55,010
Dana
Yeah. So my clients that are really ah trying to improve their child climbing, I recommend that they're getting outside once a week. um That's kind of like the best case scenario because like we can do a lot in a gym. We can do a lot of strength. We can do a lot of head game. But we cannot become great trad climbers in a gym alone.

540
01:09:55,010 --> 01:10:08,590
Dana
Like it's a component. And, you know, if you're like me, you have a job, you live in a city, like the gym is a tool and, and we can use it because we have it, but you do still have to be getting on rock like once or twice a week get at at a minimum.

541
01:10:08,590 --> 01:10:22,750
Dana
And then from like the outside perspective, it's a lot of head game, at which is so individual based on person to person. So it's like understanding, the mental experiences that that person is coming in with. And those can be fear. Those can be fear of failure.

542
01:10:22,750 --> 01:10:46,370
Dana
um Those can be like, you know, physical fear, um performance anxiety, um like a whole different slew of, of just like what people are coming in with and, and where it's coming from. Kind of like we talked about earlier. So it's, it's mental game. And then it's also like tactics or um like how to project a route once they find one, once someone finds it when they want a project, like we'll kind of talk about,

543
01:10:46,370 --> 01:10:53,570
Dana
the pieces and the skills and and that will feed back into the movement training that we do in the gym as well.

544
01:10:53,570 --> 01:11:01,260
Ari Grode
Interesting. but This might be a little bit of a selfish question since I've got, you know, a trad climbing expert who's a coach here. um

545
01:11:01,260 --> 01:11:02,390
Dana
Let's go.

546
01:11:02,390 --> 01:11:13,640
Ari Grode
you You talked about this a little bit earlier, but like, you know, not making trad climbing kind of a vacation. ah You know, I find myself doing this quite a bit where like,

547
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:32,120
Ari Grode
I can lock into that headspace where, you know, I'll take a, I'll find a project that I'm psyched on, you know, I try it. I'm really scared. Like I hang out a lot of the gear eventually gets to the point where I'm, you know, I'm able to confidently go up there and give red point goes and fall off. And it, you know, I trust what I'm doing and I can get the send or, or whatever.

548
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:43,120
Ari Grode
But then if I, it's like, if I don't do that for a little bit, you know, that process repeats itself every time I go to, you know, try a new trad project. I mean, is that,

549
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:57,210
Ari Grode
Is that really just something that you just have to you know do very, very, very consistently in order to kind of keep that mental headspace that you need to just you know kind of know that your gear is good and trust it almost automatically?

550
01:11:57,210 --> 01:11:57,760
Ari Grode
Okay.

551
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:14,270
Dana
Yeah, so there, I have like kind of two answers to that question. So the fear of heights is where a lot of that kind of like fear and acclimation comes from. And that's a biological fear that humans have. Like we are evolved to fear heights. It's, you know, how we have survived as a species.

552
01:12:14,270 --> 01:12:34,730
Dana
So because it's a biological fear, it does come back. It's like built into your wiring. um But if you have worked on that fear previously, then when you go to like re ah get over that fear again, it will happen faster. So like it will happen faster the more that you put yourself in that situation.

553
01:12:34,730 --> 01:12:56,850
Dana
um But as far as like, do I need to just keep projecting? um in order to like overcome that fear completely. I tend to view my projects as like very intentional ways to learn something new. And so for me, it is the goal becomes less about like the send, which is obviously something that I'm proud of and something that I like to do.

554
01:12:56,850 --> 01:13:09,770
Dana
But I learn like new flavors of climbing on every project. And so I always like when I pick a project, like my question is like, what is this project trying to teach me? What lesson am I going to learn here if I push myself close enough to my limit?

555
01:13:09,770 --> 01:13:22,370
Dana
And that is always something different. And I, it's never just like, just try harder. Like if that, like that would be like, and so I take these like little granules of lessons and like, that's what I carry into my next project.

556
01:13:22,370 --> 01:13:39,190
Dana
And so like on more monkey, it was like, Hey, don't waste time believing you're not good enough. Walk up to this project knowing you deserve to be here. And like, I took that to separate reality, super intimidating rock climb. I, you know, like had to, had to like remind myself of that lesson every single time I was at the Crag, like, hey, you're good enough, be here.

557
01:13:39,190 --> 01:14:03,870
Dana
And like, that to me is what's powerful about projecting. And so like, I find that those lessons can inspire more confidence than a send alone. So I guess like if you're projecting and you send a route that you're proud of, like reflect on on, what happened there, like reflect on like what you overcame, like what did you do better then when you first started and like what can you really take and like integrate into who you are as a climber?

558
01:14:03,870 --> 01:14:19,400
Ari Grode
Yeah, i can I can really relate to that. I mean, I'm thinking of like a particular route that I i think I did, maybe it was last winter or the winter before, but you know, more, you know, my own climbing abilities kind of in that mid 512 range, but you know, I was trying to push my trad climbing more into that range too.

559
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:19,970
Ari Grode
And instead of doing it as like more of a head point, this climb, you know, I really was proud of the fact that I, you know, managed to go ground up on it.

560
01:14:19,970 --> 01:14:27,710
Dana
Yeah.

561
01:14:27,710 --> 01:14:29,320
Ari Grode
So it's, that's a, That's a great, that's great point to reflect back.

562
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:31,150
Dana
Yeah.

563
01:14:31,150 --> 01:14:42,220
Ari Grode
And you know, what I take away from that experience really isn't the send it's more that I was able to, you know, convince or, you know, believe that I could go ground up and then, you know, broke it down and was able to eventually do it.

564
01:14:42,220 --> 01:14:43,380
Dana
yeah Yeah, exactly.

565
01:14:43,380 --> 01:14:44,350
Ari Grode
Um,

566
01:14:44,350 --> 01:14:48,100
Dana
I mean, like the send is cool, but like, it's a boring story, you know, like I'm much more interested in like who we become in the process.

567
01:14:48,100 --> 01:14:50,760
Ari Grode
yeah

568
01:14:50,760 --> 01:15:12,190
Dana
And like, that's what I find powerful about climbing. And and it, it like, you you know, it it removes grades from the equation, not that grades are not like a useful way to like measure progress and like see Stoke and like grades have a place in the conversation. But to me, like the rest of it, like you just said, like knowing that I could go ground up, like that's a way more interesting story than like I sent this route.

569
01:15:12,190 --> 01:15:17,930
Ari Grode
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what

570
01:15:17,930 --> 01:15:19,400
Ari Grode
do you think, Rob?

571
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:32,500
Robert
Well, no, i mean, I think that's a cool little, uh, that like concept really reminds me of this phrase that kind of stuck with me. It's like, you don't want the problem to become easier. You want to become better so that the problem, like you meet the problem at its level.

572
01:15:32,500 --> 01:15:32,930
Dana
Yeah.

573
01:15:32,930 --> 01:15:33,200
Robert
So I think like kind of taking that approach into climbing, but then also training for that, like makes a lot of sense.

574
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:37,900
Dana
Yeah.

575
01:15:37,900 --> 01:15:59,220
Robert
And obviously that's like, that's how like you get the like the route to kind of stick with you longer than just that scent. Cause like you said, that is sort of like a passing moment, not to get too philosophical over here, but yeah, was like a I think trad, one thing that's cool about trad climbing, as opposed to the sport climbing is you kind of do have to,

576
01:15:59,220 --> 01:16:02,190
Robert
get a little more introspective when you're pushing the grid a bit more than you do on sport climbing.

577
01:16:02,190 --> 01:16:02,970
Dana
yeah

578
01:16:02,970 --> 01:16:10,410
Robert
Like one thing that i love about sport climbing and there's a time and a place is that you can kind of go check out, like clip some draws. It's, it can be pretty, uh, pretty straightforward, I guess.

579
01:16:10,410 --> 01:16:13,270
Dana
yeah

580
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:25,940
Robert
So that whole concept of like, okay you're going have to be, learning some skills and kind of becoming a little bit better at this to, to get to that next level for trad. Like there's a very rewarding factor of that.

581
01:16:25,940 --> 01:16:44,920
Robert
Um, is there anything else in terms of like, uh, maybe a mental aspect with, with track climbing. Cause I feel like that's really, it seems like that kind of has been the biggest calling for you is like this, this whole mental side of track climbing and like what it kind of brings out of you is something that seems to be drawn in a lot.

582
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:52,950
Robert
Is there any other aspect of that, that you sort of try to impose on your clients and like help them realize their full potential with.

583
01:16:52,950 --> 01:17:07,440
Dana
Yeah, so a big one is um like rewriting our mental scripts. and So ah script is the way that your brain fires a sequence of neurons when it recognizes ah like one thing.

584
01:17:07,440 --> 01:17:26,150
Dana
So you will have a script for like, like if I say tree, like your brain pictures a tree. And so a script is like a sequence of those things. And so an example, like a really important example is like, what do you do when you know, you're coming up to a crux and maybe you only land it 50% of the time.

585
01:17:26,150 --> 01:17:42,600
Dana
And so it's like, what is in your head right when you're lining up for that crux, right? Like it can be anything from, there's no way I can do this to like, ah, shit, I'm a little scared. Like maybe I'll try and like, just kind of like halfway try and just take the whip. Cause the whip's actually easier than like seeing if I can succeed.

586
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:56,450
Dana
um And so like taking that like half second and being able to rewrite it into like, I can do this. Like, I know I can do this. Like, that's really powerful. um You know, we hear all the time that like, or I hear all the time that like negative self-talk has like a hundred percent success rate.

587
01:17:56,450 --> 01:18:08,900
Dana
Like if you tell yourself you're not going to do it, you're probably not going to do it. But when you're hanging upside down on a roof crack and you need to pull this move, like you're not in this mental space to be like, well, I need to be thinking positively. Like your brain's just going to think what it thinks.

588
01:18:08,900 --> 01:18:15,520
Dana
And so how do we rewrite that script? So that's an autopilot response is, I know without a doubt that I can do this. And that is really powerful.

589
01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:17,150
Robert
you

590
01:18:17,150 --> 01:18:42,690
Dana
um I just had one of my clients sent her project last week and that was the moment that she described. Like she described like coming up to the crux and and knowing that she could do it and she did it and she sent that day. And I was like, so, so so proud because like, I know that moment and it's so powerful and and just like getting to see one of my athletes like have that same moment for herself and like knowing everything that she put into it to get there.

591
01:18:42,690 --> 01:18:48,310
Dana
Like that is powerful and everyone deserves that experience.

592
01:18:48,310 --> 01:19:09,120
Robert
No, it's super cool. I mean, it's gotta to be so rewarding because like, we obviously all know like how amazing it feels to go through that process of working a project, figuring out beta, like throwing ourself out a route for X number of days and then finally like getting there and like, yes, the sun's amazing, but it's also about all the other things we've talked about where you've become a better climber in some capacity. So it's taking,

593
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:22,030
Robert
more from you and required more of you to get there. But um is there like, um i am curious as well, because you did, I, like i said, I love that phrase of taking what feels impossible and making it possible.

594
01:19:22,030 --> 01:19:43,550
Robert
Like, do you help people figure out which projects like would work well for them? Or you also like and I think potentially more important, do you ever help clients realize like, oh, this project like help them recognize which impossible projects are actually potentially not possible for them right now and which ones are, what mean?

595
01:19:43,550 --> 01:19:44,090
Robert
Cause I think that is like probably like a tricky balance, right?

596
01:19:44,090 --> 01:19:46,260
Dana
Yeah, yeah.

597
01:19:46,260 --> 01:19:54,300
Robert
Cause you want to like, you want to believe you got it. You can go sit and rock up to that project and get it one day, but also you want to make that like the best possible opportunity for you to do it.

598
01:19:54,300 --> 01:19:56,500
Dana
Yeah, yeah, I get you.

599
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:56,650
Robert
Right.

600
01:19:56,650 --> 01:20:08,780
Dana
and And I will be the first person to tell you that like mega projecting can be a crutch. Like, you know, like it can be an avoidance of something new, you know, like it's the security of going back to the same thing because it's the devil you know.

601
01:20:08,780 --> 01:20:28,450
Dana
and And so like knowing the balance is definitely important. As far as like helping clients pick projects, if it's an area that I'm familiar with, like, hell yeah, like I will make suggestions. I won't be like, hey, this is your new project, but I'll be like, have you considered this? Like maybe try this, maybe check out this. And um I lean on Carly for that too, because we've kind of like climbed in you know different areas.

602
01:20:28,450 --> 01:20:45,420
Dana
um But what I really want clients to feel for a project is a spark. the Like, I don't want them to be like, well, I sent 11D, so 12A is next. Or like, well, I want to send a 12, so it has to be a 12A. Like, or like, you know, i like, I just, I don't want them to pick a project because they think they should pick it.

603
01:20:45,420 --> 01:21:03,680
Dana
I, like, want them to feel something for the climb. Like, I want them to walk up to a climb and be like, what if I could? Like, I want them to feel like it would be so sick if they could do that. And like, I will, like, listen to the inspiration that clients bring in. So like, if they're really stoked about a climb, like, I'm not going to be like, hey, do you think that's too hard for you?

604
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:04,030
Dana
Or like, hey, I don't think you can do it.

605
01:21:04,030 --> 01:21:05,400
Robert
I don't

606
01:21:05,400 --> 01:21:15,610
Dana
You know, like, let's open it up. Let's find out. Because like, projecting is just learning. And like, climbing is supposed to be fun. And you should be inspired. And like, there's no rulebook. Like, fuck the pyramid. I hate the pyramid. You know, like, there is something to be said for like, building up your skills slowly over time.

607
01:21:15,610 --> 01:21:18,820
Ari Grode
Thank you.

608
01:21:18,820 --> 01:21:29,520
Dana
But I don't think that picking a project based on the pyramid is like, the be end all be all. um And so like, a client will pick a pick a project. And I really emphasize learning.

609
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:46,680
Dana
um Like, I want you to be able to learn something from every session. I don't want you climbing it the same way over and over and over again and making the same fall over and over and over again. It's like, if you're falling at the same point, like why, what are we up against? Like, what is the limiting factor? And so like being able to identify the specific limiting factor.

610
01:21:46,680 --> 01:21:59,310
Dana
And then my job as a coach is to pull out that limiting factor and turn it into something in your training plan. So a good example um from my own climbing that Carly helped me with was like,

611
01:21:59,310 --> 01:22:16,440
Dana
the um the the dynamic move on separate reality. Separate reality is like a roof crack and it's, you know, 20 feet of fully horizontal roof crack climbing. And then there's a dynamic move where you kind of like have to pop out and like get this like slopey jug behind you.

612
01:22:16,440 --> 01:22:16,540
Dana
And I could do the crack and I could do the slopey move behind me, but I was having a lot of trouble linking them.

613
01:22:16,540 --> 01:22:21,300
Ari Grode
Thank you.

614
01:22:21,300 --> 01:22:46,380
Dana
And so Carly and I together identified that the limiting factor was power endurance, that my ability to pull that hard move after climbing the crack was what was limiting me. And so we took that limit and turned it into ah anaerobic endurance workouts. And this was like the middle of the summer. It was a hundred degrees in Yosemite. And so I just like did this aerobic endurance workout for six weeks and then went back to separate reality and like could link the moves.

615
01:22:46,380 --> 01:23:22,650
Dana
So ah ah good client will come with a learner's mindset and the ability to like really fine tune with a fine tooth comb, like understand um like the minutiae of their experience. And then a good coach will be able to take that kind of like, you know, those limits and those um experiences and turn them into a training program. But as far as like, you know, how long is too long on a project? If if you can go out to that climb and like learn something new and like feel stoked, like if you can end the session and like feel hope in your heart and like have like learned a new thing, like, yeah, let's keep going.

616
01:23:22,650 --> 01:23:41,140
Dana
You know, like a project is is too hard or a project is like, maybe something that we come back to if that learning phase is over. Like if you go out and you're beating your head against the wall, like if you're just not getting, if it's just not improving anymore, it's not fun. And it's like, okay, like, do we need to go train endurance for six weeks? Like, do we need to train dynamic movement for six weeks and come back and come back as a different climber?

617
01:23:41,140 --> 01:23:52,470
Dana
Or do we want to come back next year? Like, as as long as there's that energy of like learning and feedback cycle and like looping training into it, like the projecting process is like so much fun.

618
01:23:52,470 --> 01:23:56,900
Dana
And like, that is like the deepest possible learning, I think.

619
01:23:56,900 --> 01:24:04,280
Ari Grode
Yeah. Yeah. No. And that's a great example of, you know, the, the power of training something like power endurance for your, your specific there with, with separate reality.

620
01:24:04,280 --> 01:24:06,710
Dana
Yeah.

621
01:24:06,710 --> 01:24:34,160
Ari Grode
No, that's super cool. And like, you can tell the, the passion is very much coming through, and you've, and like, I can imagine working with you is really fun because it's not just about, you know, progressing to the next number or letter grade. It's more about the journey and the experience and growing and, you know, enjoying that process. So, yeah, I mean, it's been, it's been really cool. And and it's cool to see that applied to something like trad climbing, which I feel like people don't necessarily always think about.

622
01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:34,930
Ari Grode
Most people probably don't think about applying that too.

623
01:24:34,930 --> 01:24:37,420
Dana
Totally.

624
01:24:37,420 --> 01:24:48,210
Ari Grode
I'm curious if, if people want to, you know, work with you or, or learn more about your, your, your coaching, I mean, where can they get more information or, or, you know, potentially sign up for,

625
01:24:48,210 --> 01:24:48,250
Dana
Yeah. So you can follow Project Direct on Instagram. And there's also an email list. That's my social media presence right now is just all through Project Direct. And then if you're interested in coaching, you can check out the Project Direct website. And there's an intake form on there. And you just like fill out the intake. And then if you're a good match, then we'll reach out to you and and kind of get it rolling from there.

626
01:24:48,250 --> 01:25:11,090
Ari Grode
ah

627
01:25:11,090 --> 01:25:23,810
Ari Grode
Yeah, you heard it there. If you want to, if you want to improve your trad climbing skills with Dana, uh, you know, check out project direct and, you know, let them know that you're, you're interested in in pushing those, pushing those boundaries.

628
01:25:23,810 --> 01:25:27,900
Dana
Yeah.

629
01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:29,140
Ari Grode
What do we think?

630
01:25:29,140 --> 01:25:33,260
Robert
Cool. I feel, I feel pretty good about it. Dana, how do you feel?

631
01:25:33,260 --> 01:25:36,450
Dana
um Yeah. Can I just do like a closing remarks?

632
01:25:36,450 --> 01:25:37,070
Robert
Yeah. Yeah. Is there, yeah.

633
01:25:37,070 --> 01:25:37,610
Ari Grode
Please.

634
01:25:37,610 --> 01:25:40,780
Robert
i was going to say, is there anything else you definitely want to cover?

635
01:25:40,780 --> 01:26:05,570
Dana
Yeah. I mean, I just, I just like really want to impart and I believe I said this probably more than once, but Trad climbing really is for everyone. Like pushing your boundaries in trad climbing is, is available to you. And like, I think it's so easy to see like pro trad climbers um and, and just think that they're like a cut above and in their own category, but like that is available to you. And like, I feel that I have been put in this category as like someone who's badass and brave and like,

636
01:26:05,570 --> 01:26:05,690
Dana
Sure, I am, but like it's because I decided to be.

637
01:26:05,690 --> 01:26:08,680
Ari Grode
Thank you.

638
01:26:08,680 --> 01:26:47,510
Dana
you know It's like because like I put in the work to be. and And I really like want to welcome other people into the space, like especially women. um I think it's harder for women to get trad climbing. And I just i want i want like this level of limit pushing self-trust um to be available and like to welcome more people into it. so um Yeah, if you're like hearing this and you have like a little spark in your heart of like, what if I could, i just want you to know that you can and you will, and it's gonna be even more awesome than you think it will be. So um yeah, i hope I hope more people are stoked to get into drug climbing.

639
01:26:47,510 --> 01:26:47,530
Ari Grode
ah yeah.

640
01:26:47,530 --> 01:26:47,900
Robert
I love that.

641
01:26:47,900 --> 01:26:54,160
Robert
I mean, I know those are closing remarks, but they might, they might be, have to be opening remarks. don't know. That's pretty cool way to lead off.

642
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:54,330
Dana
Sure, yeah.

643
01:26:54,330 --> 01:27:07,070
Robert
and We'll figure that out. But no, either way, I echo everything you're saying there. I think it's like a, it's a never ending journey. And I feel like it's one of those journeys that's like fulfilling every step of the way.

644
01:27:07,070 --> 01:27:07,260
Robert
So I will just echo what Dana says, like,

645
01:27:07,260 --> 01:27:09,990
Dana
Yeah.

646
01:27:09,990 --> 01:27:10,000
Dana
Yeah.

647
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:10,640
Robert
Check it out.

648
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:13,320
Robert
Try it out. Go about it safely. As she's mentioned, there are there are some hazardous aspects to it, but it's ah it's a fun world to be in for sure.

649
01:27:13,320 --> 01:27:20,000
Dana
Yeah.

650
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:22,280
Dana
Yep.

651
01:27:22,280 --> 01:27:23,580
Ari Grode
Sweet.

652
01:27:23,580 --> 01:27:23,590
Robert
Cool.

653
01:27:23,590 --> 01:27:24,290
Dana
Cool.

654
01:27:24,290 --> 01:27:26,310
Ari Grode
All right. Cool. If I kill the recording here.

655
01:27:26,310 --> 01:27:27,310
Robert
Yeah, yeah.